Tuesday, February 21, 2006

Why 3D projection makes sense


There has been some more discussion about the Revolution´s last secret and, reading the comments in my last post, I feel it is time to remind the community that there are some very good reasons for believing in some kind of 3D projection method, be it Augmented Reality or stereoscopically projected 3D. Just as a reminder, here is a run-down of the circumstantial evidence.


* The console stand:
It´s slanted, which must be more than a mere design feature, because it makes the console more likely to be knocked over. In my mind, this would suggest that the console is ´pointing up´ at the player. As this is most likely not required by the controller interaction, there could be another type of data exchange between console and player. Additionally, the stand is rumoured to double as a battery pack, according to the UK´s official Nintendo magazine.

* The size:
The console will be tiny. Stack three DVDs and see what you end up with. It´s ridiculously small. This confines the hardware to not being much more powerful than the GameCube. But Nintendo would never castrate their hardware if it wasn´t for a good reason. So, the method of viewing and, thus, portability could be the revolutionary ingredients instead. In fact, there has been a reliable source stating some months ago that a portable GameCube was at least considered by Nintendo a few years back. The Revolution could be that. With a size of three DVD cases stacked, it will be a fairly portable device anyway. And given some kind of 3D projection, even a portable Revolution would still compete with the other home consoles.

* Nintendo´s refusal to show graphics:
This is the best indicator yet that there is a new way the graphics will be displayed. Marketingwise, not showing any gameplay footage is the worst move any console manufacturer can make. Most people don´t even know Nintendo is coming out with a new console. Understandably, since the mass medium, television, is visually oriented and has had no reason whatsoever to report about the Revolution. Nintendo never even supplied tv stations with that controller demo reel shown at TGS. So, Nintendo is actively discouraging media coverage. The only reason behind that can be something so big that, once revealed, will attract mass media automatically.

* The controller:
Imagine using the Rev controller with a television. The tv set´s size and your distance from it will mean that your movement on screen is very limited, especially compared to the movement your arm can make. If that is all to be accounted for, your arm´s on-screen representation would have to be scaled down to a tiny size. Alternatively, controller movement would have a limited range (before you hit the screen´s side, like a mouse does). As an alternative, imagine using the controller in a full 3D environment, enabled by some kind of VR or AR technology. The difference is immense. The controller is a neat idea on a standard television, but it is a full-blown revolution in a 3D environment.

* Price:
Even the price of 3D projection (both peripheral and integrated solutions) has been confirmed to be mass-market friendly, at under $100 (read The Price of the Future and The Price of the Future, part II).

* The technical drawing
This image, taken from the EU trademark and design site, shows that there is an extra fan and two receptacles on the Revolution´s underside that would normally rest inside the stand. One of the receptacles could be proof of the stand indeed powering the Revolution or the stand being some kind of battery pack. The fan has no use inside the stand, so the Revolution will also be used outside of it. Both aspects prove that the Revolution will have some portable aspect to it.

* Quotes:
Miyamoto: "It's convenient to make games that are played on TVs. But I always wanted to have a custom-sized screen that wasn't the typical four-cornered cathode-ray-tube TV. I've always thought that games would eventually break free of the confines of a TV screen to fill an entire room. But I would rather not say anything more about that."
Business Week

Miyamoto: "I think maybe if I could do anything, I would make it so you don´t have to sit in front of a TV and play. If you could have a machine that you just plugged in and played inside a virtual world that - would be just great."

Miyamoto: "Sitting in front of your monitor with a controller, there's really nowhere to go from that paradigm, all you can do is make it prettier and faster."

Iwata: "We invented the current way a console is played - in front of a television and holding a controller - but maybe that image will change."

Iwata: "When you turn on Revolution and see the graphics, you will say 'wow!'"

Iwata: "The keyword for the DS was 'innovative product,' but it will be 'paradigm shift in [game] play' with the Revolution."

Iwata: "Our next home system (...) won't simply be new or include new technologies. Better technology is good, but not enough. Today's consoles already offer fairly realistic expressions so simply beefing up the graphics will not let most of us see a difference. So what should a new machine do? Much more. An unprecedented gameplay experience. Something no other machine has delivered before."

Fils-Aime: "The concept of a home system today is defined as hardware that you tether to a box, and you are tethered to it via a controller; we think that's an old paradigm."

Fils-Aime: "With our next home console we will address the area of gamer community. You said ´online´. I used ´online´ as a description of a flawed business model. We are passionate about enabling our gamers to play with their friends [and] to play with others across long distances. There are a number of different ways to execute that."

Wada (Square-Enix): "Not just a portable, not just a console - it's exactly what we wanted in that it's the birth of a completely new platform."

Note: Due to time contraints I was unable to verify all these quotes by tracing them back to their original source. I apologize for that. Most of these are well known, though. And I hope to be able to add sources later.

* Conclusion:
This all shows that stereoscopic 3D and Augmented Reality are possibilities to be considered. There is one (and only one) argument against some kind of projection and it is the user-friendliness. Nintendo do not want to put non-gamers off. This need not be the case, however, if you consider a stereoscopic plate of glass (as in the NASA patent), which allows images to appear in mid-air. Also, AR is far less threatening, allowing the player to see through such a visor. These specific options may still sound unlikely, but the above points definitely show that the Revolution will not just work with tv sets and monitors, but will be playable ´on the go´. That, for me, is a given. And, in my mind, some kind of 3D peripheral is a possibility.

145 comments:

babble said...

Again, Fala'kid, you're article is great.

I want to believe!

Falafelkid said...

Thanks, Babble. Of course, it´s important not to get your hopes up too high. But there have been so many concrete indicators of the Revolution not displaying graphics normally.

Anonymous said...

so fal, if it ends up being stereo 3d and is cool and all, what is preventing ms and sony from doing the same? you can't say patents because there are many, many ways to produce stereoscopic 3d and all they have to do is pick one (a cheap one that is) and add it in or make it a peripheral.

Falafelkid said...

Sure, Anonym. But by the time they can copy it, Nintendo will have sold 20 million consoles. Well, perhaps ;)

Blizz419 said...

i like this isea and all, i just dont think its gonna haapen, as much as i would like to have some sort of 3D projection in the Rev i think it would intimidate alot of non-gamers which they are trying to reel in.

Falafelkid said...

Like I said, Blizz, that is the only contention and there´s a solution for that. In my mind, anyone who doesn´t think that this is possible will have to explain all the aspects listed by some other theory. Size, quotes, technical drawing, all that. Any ideas?

Emilio said...

Nice article, but I think given the quality that it would be able to produce (low) to keep the price low, it would be more a of a gimmick that a usable feature.

If there's something there (in the case) pointing to the gamer, I think is more probable that it would be a camera sort of eye-toy thingy... to maybe track player's movement.

Anonymous said...

i really dont think it will intimidate the non-gamers. non-gamers also buy plasma televisions (high end, new technology tvs) and enjoy them. heck, there is what, 5 different types (lcd, plasma, dlp, etc) of high def tvs out there? gamers will love the technology. non gamers might find it fun and refreshing to have a projector in their system (think ps2 and dvd playback at the time). as a side note, if they could incorporate watching television into the projector experience, i'm sold. and i believe there are plenty of others out there that are sold. actually more than plenty.

Shoxware Games said...

BUT - folks... Don't get your hopes up too high! I don't think that will happen! Imagine this: I don't think, that the Revolution will be so developer friendly, if this happens - first off the new DPD controller is really challenging and then stereoscopic 3D is a hard case i guess! It's a risky thing for developers! But this might be the only way for nintendo to get out of the HD struggle. In 3 to 4 years, HD is a standart - look how many people buy HDTVs only for FIFA WC 2006? Many, many! I think nintendo is really in trouble then - the weakest console with no HD functions. That's bad propaganda! What are your thoughts?

And yes - there IS a significant difference from HDTV to SDTV!

Anonymous said...

You have write what i was thinking!!! You´re great!!!
Buko.

game on said...

What an amazing post! Has anything been said recently that would prove this also? This would be a revolution!

Anonymous said...

Wow. I never thought I'd see the day you came around, and admitted that SOMETHING is amiss with all the odd Nintendo quotes, the unreal lack of Revolution images, and the complete lack of adressing that very topic from Nintendo.

I had a blog awhile back(Revolutiontruth) and after the controller was shown, I decided that my part in the n-game debunking was over. I still feel that way, as I KNEW everything out there was crap when it came to the controller.(King DEA and my fight with him comes to mind)

This is a different ball-game now, and I have NEVER been able to just flat-out say;

"The Revolution WILL have regular graphics, on a standerd Television".

Ever since my call to Emagin, to verify that the people heard in the now infamous "Bruce Westcoat" call were real(Talk about a strange moment when you learn that SOMETHING you read on the internet had some truth to it!) I have had to step back, and actually accept the fact that NINTENDO IS UP TO SOMETHING, when it comes to how we will VIEW the Revolution's output.

Keep up the good work Falafelkid, and if you need some help, or perhaps a contributing editorial piece, just let me know.

I'm a regular at the MozLaPunk boards.

runnin_blue said...

I don't think projection would "scare off" non-gamers, in fact, I think it will have the opposite affect.

When something completely new comes out it grabs people's attention and their wallets. The PS3 and XBOX360 are not new but rehashes of consoles we've seen before.

If you showed a non-gamer an Xbox360 they would shrug their shoulders but if you showed them a Revolution displaying projection I GUARANTEE you will get their attention.

Anonymous said...

and nintendo just announced tv capability for the ds. lets hope for that extra functionality for the rev, especially if it can project at high def.

Anonymous said...

I love Nintendo but the only people that believe this stuff are people that believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. I'm sorry but this is simply a joke.
When Nintendo has to be taken kicking and screaming into online play and when they believe that no one will own an HD TV in the five years (lifespan of the console). I find it hard to believe they are going to make this giant leap.

Blizz419 said...

Falafel, I understand your points and they are good very points i just think that theres something were not seeing some other explanation, i hope i am wrong becouse 3D projection would be cool but i just doubt it will happen in the Rev, maybe next gen.


shoxware, good points

Blizz419 said...

that is also a very good runnin_blue, i cant wait till we get some more solid information, all the mystery around the rev still is making my head spin

a3ko said...

First time poster, long time reader. Great site Falafelkid!

To Anonymous above,

Remember that Nintendo's core business is Gaming, but Sony has its hands in MANY areas (manufacturing HDTVs is one of them). Why would Nintendo want to sell a console that supports High Def, where by doing so would mean they are potentially supporting the purchase of a Sony HDTV as well?

It would make sense for Nintendo to have a projection-type system that will allow the image to be viewed WITHOUT the need for a TV, which would possibly hit Sony twice as hard. And I don't think Nintendo ever said that the Revolution couldn't produce High Definition graphics....it just said that you couldn't hook it up to a HDTV. Is this correct Falafelkid?

Thanks!

910do said...

Thanks Fal' for answering my question, and great article, and I beleive it does really make sense !!!

Anonymous said...

Excellent article, I hope this turns out to be true. But what about the backcatalogue of the NES, SNES, N64 and GC? Will those games also be playable on this screen/visor/projection/whatever thing?

Anonymous said...

thats what i was trying to say a3ko.

watch tv in high def using the projector. high def is 1280 x 720 (for 720 progressive) and 1920 x 1080 (for 1080 interlaced)

now the PVPro by LBO produces images up to 2048 x 1280.

http://www.lightblueoptics.com/Light_Blue_Optics_PVPro.pdf

therefore high def tv. booya!

i defiantely think nintendo said they didnt want high def in their system because they didnt want to give the secret away. that would have happened because when they announced the price of the system was lower than $300, it would have been seen as too cheap to incorporate all the hardware needed to display in high def on a tv. so then people would be looking for alternative ways to produce high def quality images, and therefore hinting at the PVPro or something similar.

all we have done is guess at the PVPro. its a very enticing and well thought out guess though.

max said...

Let us broad our vision for a moment trying to answer together to some aspect of the techology suggested here:

FUTURNA/3D PROJECTOR
Someone suggested the small door in front of the Revolution is a 3D projector that will open Nintendo to new opportunities with Hollywood industries. That would make the Revo portable, and energy wolud be given by a rechargable battery recharged by the docking station. That would explain Wi-Fi and size.
QUESTION: What about audio? Even if you have a 3D projector like the one seen in the movie Star Wars…what about the audio? I cannot see any headphone jack on the Revo, nor a speaker (and I don’t think Nintendo is adding Hi-Fi speaker bundled with the Revo). And don’t forget the controllers…portability means portability…mobile PCs are getting smaller and smaller because vendors finally understud that 17″ screens are not that portable. Imagine you going around with a Revo, 4 controllers, motion detectors, controller shells for old games….and so on…see the point? Well, I also think it is portable because it is small, it reminds me the firts generation Gameboy because of the shape (notice the cut corner of the Revo and the GB) but something is missing.

ON VISOR
Well, it would be great. We have many clues about it:
- the spanish video
- the HMD clue found on Animal Crossing DS
- the ON written all around IGN articles
- the ON of Shenova Corporation
- the many suggestions about getting free of TVs and entering new dimensions by Miyamotosan and others
- etc. etc.
QUESTION: that woud really make the Revo portable: it would solve the audio problem, the screen problem and maybe the motion sensor problem answering also the question why Nintendo didn’t show the sensors until today. Yes! Why Nindendo is not showing anything about them? After all they should be nothing more than small boxes and their shapes wouldn’t reveal secrets about the technology. So, probably, they cannot show them because they are in some way connected with the third secret…or maybe, if the ON visor is true, no boxes at all…the ON visor IS the sensor.
Reasons why we should not consider ON visor a reality is mostly the difficulty in letting people wear such a strange device…hardcore gamers would be crazy for it, but non gamers won’t. Imagine someone with a portable Revo sitting in a Mc Donald wearing those glasses and moving his harms….strange guy, don’t you think?

OTHER ASPECTS TO CONSIDER
Nintendo wants people to enjoy together. The visor wouldn’t make people share the fun unless the Revo is connected to a TV set showing others what the player is doing.
Any 3D projector need audio, power, proper environment/light.

No more ideas…any answer?

Anonymous said...

Very nice article. It might be true but they would have to overcome a lot of technical problems such as:
Will it be too difficult for casual gamers to use and setup?
How will this work with different television sizes?
Will people get a headache from playing too long?
Porting games from PS3/XBox 360 might be difficult.

As mentioned above I think that there is a special interaction with the controller and the Revolution. I just noticed "Emilio's" previous post about the EyeToy. I think that this might be the answer, the Revolution contains a built in EyeToy where you would point the system at you. This would answer a lot of the questions such as why there is a stand and currently usb camera's are cheap to include in the revolution.

Looking at the wikipedia entry there are a few interesting quotes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyetoy

"The sequel to the EyeToy will come out in early 2006 with High-definition capabilities and supported by the PlayStation 3."

"In response to these limitations, Sony has filed a patent for a "wand" controller capable of illuminating different coloured LEDs in order to communicate the controller's position and simple commands to the camera"

a3ko said...

To Anon,

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to say. It would be awesome if the Rev could project at High Definition! But considering NO ONE guessed that the controller would resemble a remote, we're probably all WAY OUT in left field on this one as well. (I hope not though....) =)

Tino Cordes said...

What about the sound? I dont think there is an speaker in there. So you would have to bring a small speaker-system.

And there dosn't seem to be an audio-out in there screens we have seen. Any thougts on this?

Anonymous said...

tino,

what if they included some cordless speakers? something small like bookshelf but smaller, kinda like the cube surround sound speakers (not talking about gamecube)

theyre way expensive, but maybe there are some cheap alternatives...

Falafelkid said...

If there really was some kind of headgear, then headphones would be built into them.

Darth Link said...

Aloha, Falafel. Please let me note a few things:

* The console stand: My theory is that it's pointing to the player because Nintendo might chose to get rid of the controller reader bars that are supposed to be placed near the TV (which in my opinion could be a bad idea because it might be difficult to do that on different setups)and make the Revolution console itself read the controller movements. The front of the console might need to have 'eye contact' with the controller.

* The size of the Revolution does scream 'Portable!'. But if my memory serves me right, that's what Nintendo attempted with the GameCube. That's why they put that handle behind it that made everyone call it the lunchbox. So it's not the first time they'd do this.

* Nintendo's refusal to show graphics could well be in order not to dissapoint people. We already know it won't be as powerful as the competitors new machines, and I think they don't want us to see the not so powerful graphics until we actually see how we will play with them. However, I've played a few 360 games. Sure, they look neat, but I don't see why Revolution could not deliver those graphics. They're not as amazing I thought they would be, after all the hype about it.

* The controller won't work the same way the Zapper did. It's not a light gun. The Revolution word read where you're pointing at at the screen, but where it is in space. So the size of the monitor won't matter. I think controller calibration will be very important for this. You can check the latest mailbag in revolution.ign.com.

* The quotes sound much more interesting than what reality could turn out to be. In my opinion, there's no reason why we should take Miyamoto's day dreaming statements as proof of the kind of display we're talking about. The same with Iwata. The same with Reggie. They could have meant it in an 'it would be cool' way rather than anything else for all we know.

And still. It really IS interesting, isn't it? I mean, what if all the speculation and rumors about this was true? What if on E3 press conference, Iwata came out, turned the Revolution (or whatever they call it later) on and it projected images on thin air? People would say 'WOW' indeed.

I find it weird that you firmly believe this to be a fact. It does seem to make sense, but after all, it's still a guess.

But you know what? I want to believe too.

max said...

Well, I am here again adding something else about Revo and On Visor:
going to "I want to believe" page over 1Up site at
http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=2&cId=3141783
on the right it is shown the famous castle of N64 and it says "Here, Belmonte has convincingly duplicated the memorable castle area and manipulated it in a creative, interesting way based around the Nintendo On's technology. Not only has he undertaken an ambitious recreation process, he redesigned it with a gothic theme for his virtual reality vision of next generation."

Well, the point is that he absolutely did because the trees rotate as in N64. Let me explain: In N64 because of the need to save cpu power the created flat trees that rotate with the camera showing always the same angle...they are not 3D but flat images. Well, the ON video has the same effect...well, Belmonte must be a smart guy but I don't think you just spend time to recreate even that effect, while the final render with the 3D Mario has normal 3D trees. Sorry, english is not my language but I hope yu see the point...that video comes from the original Nintendo model and it is not a Belmonte re-creation of it. Not because it is perfect but because he didn't need to copy even that effect to make you believe that the video was real...too much effort for a video that had to be confessed to be Belmonte creation in few days.
Got it? Answers are welcome!

tim said...

I too believe the rev has a big card that it hasn't shown yet in the poker game that is the next gen console battle - but imo the projector is not really likely.

One of the most wise things to have, is a way to lower the price of your console towards its lifecycle - and the cost of the projector component is really hard to lower beyond this barrier. What would be possible offcourse, is that there is an ADD-ON (you know nintendo loves addons) that makes your revolution portable... It would keep the main (core!) price at 199$, but still be portable for a little extra.

Darth Link said...

Max, that Pablo Belmonte recreated that 'effect' is only logical. He, just as Nintendo did, saved time and chose not to create 3D trees, but flat ones that always show the same face.

Besides, it was supposed to be an exact recreation, so...

Falafelkid said...

Hi Darth Link. Thanks for the comments, very good points. Here are my responses:

* The console stand: My theory is that it's pointing to the player because Nintendo might chose to get rid of the controller reader bars that are supposed to be placed near the TV. (...)

Good point, that could very well be the case. I myself never believed that Nintendo would make people put a strip on the floor like in Samba de Amigo.

* The size of the Revolution does scream 'Portable!'. But if my memory serves me right, that's what Nintendo attempted with the GameCube. (...)

Good point, again. But compare your Cube to the expected size of the Rev. Huge difference. The Rev will be able to fit into some coat pockets.

* Nintendo's refusal to show graphics could well be in order not to dissapoint people. We already know it won't be as powerful as the competitors new machines, and I think they don't want us to see the not so powerful graphics until we actually see how we will play with them.

That has already happened. At TGS 2005. If they were only holding back because they want to show graphics and gameplay together, they would have shown graphics at TGS. Since they didn´t, the last secret is obivously something to do with the graphics.

* (...) The size of the monitor won't matter. I think controller calibration will be very important for this. (...)

I understand what Matt is saying, but, for clarity´s sake, picture a Zelda-esque swordfight. You will want to move your arm all over the place, just like in a real swordfight (and we all know just what that is like, don´t we?). But replicating your arm movement on a smaller screen means either scaling down the Link character or having his arm move beyond the boundaries of the tv set. Either will greatly dampen the experience. Now imagine a visor which allows your arm to become Samus´ gun and you to turn around 360 degrees. I am sure you will find that only that way, the real potential of the controller can be tapped into.

* The quotes sound much more interesting than what reality could turn out to be. In my opinion, there's no reason why we should take Miyamoto's day dreaming statements as proof of the kind of display we're talking about. (...)

Fair enough, these are statements by people trying to sell a product. Also, they may just want to generate hype without referring to anything concrete. But there is an unusual abundance of them. And it is very unlike Nintendo to do that, you must admit. Also, there have been a number of very bold statements regarding the next-gen console wars. Again, very unlike Nintendo.

Tadashi Oshima said...

It won't be projection.
Projection doesn't work in the average japanese home, the rooms are too small and there are no white, free walls.
Why make a fuzz about being usable on every TV if there is a projector built in? Even with a visor it would make more sense (because not everyone want to use one + mulitplayer if not everyone has a visor).
Also, how to make the image 3D?
Anaglyph (colorfilter) fucks with the colors, polarization is hard with one projector and in any case you need glasses.

Why a portable projector? The outside is to bright to use a projector, you don't change your gamecorner in your home every day (also, note the lack of usable walls) and everybody has at least a TV.

Sorry, if a visor is unrealistic, a projector is bullshit.

Stabby said...

Nintendo will never use visors because children could get injured and Nintendo could get sued. A lot of people would probably get themself injured on purpose and there's no way in hell Nintendo could win a lawsuit like that.

pc999 said...

Long read.

Hi , I usualy come to see your blog as I think it is well made and very professinal specialy with sources, my comgratulations for that.

But I must warning you that sometimes your arguments are weak or ambiguous for example when you talk about why they did not show any images yet one can easly conter argument that it is because they are visually inferior (as someone from Nintendo said that Zelda already look next gen) and without gameplay it would be very bad marketing, this is to just to make my point.

BTW the case will not limit the power of the console you can see that there are laptops with CoreDuo (still one of the best Intel gaming CPU) and 7800GO and there are 1900XT GO (like) coming too, but you can see for example Xenus that is passive cooled ie it dont need fans and half of Xenos (ie 24 ALUs, 4ROPs, 5 Mg ...) for 1/3 of the rez (SD/ED) would be at least almost as good as XB360 in most cases (not vertex shader bound) and IBM also have eg he 970FX @ 1,6ghz and only 16-17W at 90nm (had you saw their result on 65nm)this would also fit perfectely in the Rev (for the record if they go at 90nm they can use up to a total of 284M transistores and on 65nm up to 560M at the same die size/cost of GC) so power, price and performance is nohere limited at 3x the GC.

On the projection thing there are very good solutions coming like
http://www.lightblueoptics.com/products.html, I guess that this is (relatively) very cheap for N but I wonder if it worth if it is "only" this, althought there are some tech for depth perception(I dont remember the name and I do not have time to search now, I am sorry I will added it later if I can) that is half software half googles it only 99$ to play on the PC (I remember that a well know ghost recon fan site had a reviewn to it) althought it would hurt your eyes without glases, it would be nice add on IMO (unless they got it cheap enought which I doubt),and without force feedback it may be better let it out anyway I doubt that they can get things good enought for a low price , after all they want the big public, personally I think we may have it on the 2ª Rev (rev 2).

For the movement if it is indeed in the TV it can scale back easly and keep the fun (it would need always to scale as one could always choose the size of the "screen")

Anyway I think that there may be a very good change to get new input AS STANDARD (or no dev(%wise) will use) both voice input(DS already have it eg Nintendodogs) and image input. For voice it can add a lot in MP but also on SP as you can see there http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=2&cId=3140119 one can easly think in great things for eg tatical games from RS3 to RTSs to the end of menus in RPGs (I am sure in some games we spend more time in menus than playing) or Ndogs and this is only talking of well know types of games in how it could make very easy (for gamers or no gamers) or much more complex ones but no limited by controlers (even Rev one), one the image input you can have those http://www.gamespy.com/articles/584/584744p1.html and http://gprime.net/video.php/totalimmersion this would also add a lot but this can be obtained at a very low price as it is only needed a camera,a micro somehere a little extra of CPU power (eg 1 SPU would do it realy easly and is only 20sM transistores) and I think this would be also a be one great form of getting no gamers and games like a coocking (?) sim and such.

So I guess that for now this ALL tech still very high price, but alone it dont make much sense (only the pojection if it very very very low price and even then it can be hard for people with few space or gaming space already difined) so I find very hard to see this this appearing on the Rev, as I am convicted that they want it at 150$ launch (BTW the IGN devs too).

Anyway keep the good work.


PS: sorry the bad english.
PS2: sorry for a very low ammount of links/sources but it is to much info and very constraned time.

Stabby said...

@Tadashi Oshima: Nintendo has patented a technique called cube mapping which is used for reflections. Since games work different than nature, cube mapping could probably be used to reflect a second image for your other eye to create the 3D effect.

Anonymous said...

Falafelkid,

I guess we can agree to disagree.

Your argument is well thought out and convincing.

Remember that we didn't have X-Box 360 screen shots until E3 2005, and the 360 shipped the following fall. The same thing is happening with Nintendo. Screen shots are not being shown because they are holding out for the big E3 unveiling when all developers will be ready to show respectable screen shots and software.

I really think Nintendo is pushing the controller/gameplay angle with revolution and to show screen shots before actual true gameplay videos would be a pissing contest Nintendo can't win. So I speculate come E3, Nintendo will release videos to the press that show a person playing the game, and that will be our first official 'screen shots'.

The quotes you posted are the most convincing, and I still leave the door open for your possibility. For me, I just can't see it happening. I think the post about audio is one of the many reasons why not. It's amazing how much someones words( quotes ) can blur ones perception and motivate fantasy. Nintendo in the gamecube era was the dad that said he would be at your ball game sitting front row saying how great things will be, but never showed up. Then when you saw him later, he would just promise how great next time would be. Sure, we all had great times. For me it was the metroid primes and RE 4. But so many times with the gamecube I always felt like something wasn't quite right or was missing, such as Mario Sunshine or Wind Waker. I played those games and enjoyed them, but felt like they could have been much more. My point is, I'm still skeptical of the Nintendo Management quotes. And to be honest, if Iwata crapped in a box and told Reggie to sell it, I bet he would try to convince us all crap in a box is a revolution( Exaggerated ) :)

I will say this, if any one company can/will do it...it's Nintendo. I'm sure if they can cash the checks their quotes have written, for example, leaving the current tv paradigm, it will be easy for anyone to pickup, use, and understand.

Regardless, I'll be enjoying the revolution controller, projected image or not.

D-Bone

Anonymous said...

But Nintendo said that it could be played on any TV or monitor. If this was the truth, how would it compare in any way to 3d projection?

Tony Kaz said...

Falafelkid, I definitely think you are on to something here! Iwata himself said this was all a big puzzle and they would be giving clues. I think you have taken the clues and put them together quite nicely. Reggie denying ever seeing the "Nintendo On" video recently after I specifically remember him saying he saw it last E3 only makes me more suspicious. Nobody would forget seeing that video! So he has to now say he didn't see it so we are thrown off course. Certainly the last big secret is the graphics, it's why we haven't seen ANY! I also have the feeling that we will be able to watch movies this way as well. Welcome to "Hollywood!" The future is closer than most of us think!

Tadashi Oshima said...

@Stabby
In which way?
It isn't designed to be worn while moving or even standing.
They can even avoid such lawsuits by simply giving the warning to sit while wearing the visor. If people think they can go to the fridge and get a can of pepsi, it's their own fault.

About the cube mapping, it has nothing to do with creating a three dimensional image. How could you avoid that both eyes see the same picture? Without filters or a seperate screen for each eye it is impossible.
Even 3D tvs need a constant distance to work.

daniel said...

I'm sorry, 3D projection sounds cool and all but - I think it's bullcrap. :)

And no, i don't think Rev will be very snug to carry along. As N found out with GameCube (that actually features a handle for carrying) consumers don't really care for it (and besides, with the prize of Cubes today - just get more of them! :) ).

max said...

Thank you, D-Bone, to mention my post about problems related to the audio aspect of the 3D projection.
I really believe audio related solutions should be considered in every idea suggested here.

We all agree Revo is portable. It is a small black box and we have to interact with it...input...output.
Input: we have the remote controllers and some kind of receiver.
Output: audio/video. No more, no less. We all should agree on the fact that speakers are not built in the Revo, cannot be add-on because of cost/quality/portability/power. These are the reasons why I think hearphones are the only compromise between cost/quality/portability/power.
Again, about projection you need space/light/surface to projet on.
A visor would give the solution to all of that...portability, audio, video.
Plus the core of Nintendo factor that is fun, shared fun.
In London I had fun with Virtual Reality in the late '90s and the game was about Gundam style robots fighting in a squared city. It was fun because I could see other friends as robots in my visor.
The Revo would have the same experience...imagine Mario Party where you look at your friend as Luigi or someone else. Of course every player has to have a visor, and people can enjoy the game on a TV set realizing what gamers are doing in their shared reality.
Maybe you need only one Revo to make two or 4 visors work togheter.
The expectation for a visor is too big to let it go unfulfilled. And Nintendo created it on purpose. To create a need and fill it is the basic in business. About Almondo making flat trees...yes it could be, maybe it is that easy but Belmonte made such a bad Mario world at the end of that On video that I cannot believe he made that big effort so to create a perfect replica of the N64 castle. It got only 5 days and in a hurry he had to think also to copy that effect...sorry guys, but I don't believe it.

Stabby said...

@tadashi: what if some idiot decides to smash his 2000$ HDTV or hit his mom in a coma with the controller and make it look like he couldn't see because of the visor?

And what cube mapping does is reflecting a rendered image to create another from a different point of view. It avoids that an image needs to be rendered twice.

In the end you need 2 images, one for each eye. What happens in the first image, happens in the second image. So all you need for the second image is some sort of live video or reflection of the first.

The two images need to be switched really fast to make it seem 3D, let's say 60 fps for each image - 120 total. No TV in the world can do that, but maybe projectors can (or you could simply use 2 beams)

max said...

"Anyone who can capture all the polygons and textures of Peach's castle, which even the best N64 emulators can't quite do to this quality, and then reconstruct it as close to exactly as anybody can tell, who DOESN'T actually work for Nintendo, deserves some points for technical achievement, I'd say." - 'JonLeung', Planet GameCube Forums

Anonymous said...

Hey Falafelkid,

as always, nice and interesting read.
I don't want to comment on the possilities your ideas, but about what you said about the TV-screen restricting the gameplay.

As I read at IGN - for example in a swordfight - you don't have to swing your arm all around to be able to deliver a good stroke. BUT since you want to do it (I know you want to :) you can still do. The Revolution will then do the same thing as if you were just barely moving your hand. E.g. Link will spread out his arm and then swing the sword.
Just because the screen-size is smaller, your movement isn't restricted.
You can go outside of the TV with your movement and LInk will do his animation, just as you would just move your hand a little.

You know what I mean?
This is difficult to explain though...Perhaps I didnt get your point :(

Manuel

Anonymous said...

Falafelkid - excellent article. Back at E3 2005 - Nintendo had some type of interactive fish projected onto the floor. I think it was near the Zelda promo area. Have you seen video of this "fish" demo? It's avail online. Since the day I saw that at the Nintendo booth, I knew it was something they were planning with Revolution.

Realmy said...

Fal, go rip RtR a new one with that new Update of his. He posted the "bomb". Haha.

Tadashi Oshima said...

Sorry Stabby, but that doesn't work like that.
Cube mapping is a rendering technique, so it doesn't help to make something 3D to the user.

Sueing isn't as easy as you say.
First, who plays standing a meter away from his plasma?
And hitting someone is also hard, as first, you play by slight moving your hand, not beating the air, and second, even if you use the exaggerated style, somebody has to be blind to not see it.
Either, you don't punch around or you do it all the time, so it's almost impossible to hurt someone.
Putting a "Please play in a calm way and look that no delicate objects are in reach" as warning is enough.
Hell, even in the VR boom they put the people in cages to prevent them from falling or going rampant on the audience.

Do you know how many people get hurt by sport accidents, even thought they didn't play? It's called risk, but for the Rev this risk is almost nonexistent.

Sule said...

Just an idea (I haven't read all the other comments). Emillio at the top of the page said:

''If there's something there (in the case) pointing to the gamer, I think is more probable that it would be a camera sort of eye-toy thingy... to maybe track player's movement''

Could this be true. A new dance dance REVOLUTION???? Tracking players movements!?!?!?!?!?! Just dreaming here!!!

Anonymous said...

No projection or visor.

Glasses.

I'm telling you...Wired glasses.

-Derek

Ether[m-m] said...

I don´t believe the way revo stands be relevant. It´s just a nice solution in terms of design for the same case as the PS2.

Nor I believe Revo being portable. I understand the quote of being "not exactly portable" as that it will allow you to play "wherever" you want (via some peripheral),some kind of wireless connectivity to a display (or visor).

Because I do believe Revo will allow for some kind of stereoscopical/AR viewing, because of the controller and all these quotes.

Actually, the PARADIGM of all known videogames since today IS VR (people thinks on VR just as a "very inmersive way" to display the same games they'r playing). All games are played on a virtual world. Only a mix between real and virtual would mean a true new paradigm.

AR has the potential of being less alienating and much more interactive way of playing.

Nintendo do not want to scare people, that's why he choose a very familiar look with the controller looking as a TV remote.

It doesn't matter at all MS or Sony copying the stereoscopical displaying. Nintendo has protected very accuratelly the intelectual property of the controller. Without the controller, you only have half less than half of the experience. A very nice way of display the same graphics and (almost the) same gameplay.

Sorry for my english.

Saludos

Anonymous said...

I follow this blog and respect falafel kid for bringing legitimacy to Rev rumor mongering, but this projection thing just doesn't make any sense. Does anyone think 480p digital projection is cheap enough to be incorporated into a new gaming system? Nintendo wants to release the Rev under $300. Can anyone name one 480p digital projector that's $300? And if you own a projector you know that you have to replace bulbs, right? Those alone cost around $300.
What's bad about the projection speculation is people are now hoping for high def projection because it seems like some kind of syntactical loop-hole for Nintendo's OFFICIAL stance of NO HI-DEF. Again, do people realize how much a 720p digital projector costs? Not under 1K buddy. And then there are people trying to play connect the dots with new technologies that are just emerging. The laser-based Light Blue Optics projector? That thing doesn't even display color yet and isn't in mass production. Yet, somehow Nintendo will be able to get a hold of it and put in a $300 gaming box. Whatever.
Again, much respect to you Falafelkid, but you're causing mass hysteria among some readers and undoubtely will create Rev-haters when E3 comes and Nintendo doesn't deliver anything remotely (no pun intended) close to what's been posted on here.

Ether [m-m] said...

I don´t believe the way revo stands be relevant. It´s just a nice solution in terms of design for the same case as the PS2.

Nor I believe Revo being portable. I understand the quote of being "not exactly portable" as that it will allow you to play "wherever" you want (via some peripheral),some kind of wireless connectivity to a display (or visor).

Because I do believe Revo will allow for some kind of stereoscopical/AR viewing, because of the controller and all these quotes.

Actually, the PARADIGM of all known videogames since today IS VR (people thinks on VR just as a "very inmersive way" to display the same games they'r playing). All games are played on a virtual world. Only a mix between real and virtual would mean a true new paradigm.

AR has the potential of being less alienating and much more interactive way of playing.

Nintendo do not want to scare people, that's why he choose a very familiar look with the controller looking as a TV remote.

It doesn't matter at all MS or Sony copying the stereoscopical displaying. Nintendo has protected very accuratelly the intelectual property of the controller. Without the controller, you only have half less than half of the experience. A very nice way of display the same graphics and (almost the) same gameplay.

Sorry for my english.

Saludos

Anonymous said...

Good morning,
Although I don't want to comment on this topic yet, I can tell you that there won't be any difficulties with stereoscopic 3D graphics.

With this technology you can convert flat 3D to steroscopic 3D, the process is called 'Dimensionalization' and was developed by In-Three, a quite 'small' company.

http://www.in-three.com

I'm not too sure whether this could be used with Nitendo Revolution, but I think some video game companies already talked about it.

Falafelkid said...

Hi Anonymous.

Does anyone think 480p digital projection is cheap enough to be incorporated into a new gaming system? Nintendo wants to release the Rev under $300. Can anyone name one 480p digital projector that's $300? And if you own a projector you know that you have to replace bulbs, right? Those alone cost around $300. (...) Again, much respect to you Falafelkid, but you're causing mass hysteria among some readers and undoubtely will create Rev-haters when E3 comes and Nintendo doesn't deliver anything remotely (no pun intended) close to what's been posted on here.

Well, the resolution issue is an interesting one. I don´t know what kind of resolution those projectors would output. But it needn´t be 480p to be amazing, that´s for sure. As to bulbs, the cost of one is down to the Lumen they generate. I have an old Sony beamer which has a lower output than today´s models, but it uses standard halogen bulbs for less than five bucks.

Consider this project; it is sponsored by a Japanese videogame company. Regardless of which one, this shows you how close the implementation of 3D technology already is.

On the company´s homepage you can see all the necessary hardware elements for yourself: You require special 3-D interfacing software, a cluster of three CPU’s (some other solutions can even do without the cluster), two (two-dimensional) LCD projectors, turning mirrors and a special Holographic Display Screen, which acts the same way 3D glasses at your local IMAX would. As a result, 3D graphics would hover in mid-air above that screen.

I talked to Rick Shie, VP at POC, and he assured me that their solution was ready for the mass-market and could be sold at under $100. Who they are developing gaming applications with, he could not say. But you will see that this kind of technology is much closer than you thought.

And if you don´t believe that the Rev will work with anything else than an oridnary screen, please try and explain at least some of the aspects I listed. Why is it so small that they are effectively castrating their own machine? Why did they refuse to show graphics at TGS, if there is no last secret that would be given away by showing them? Why those receptacles and the extra fan underneath the console, resting on the stand? Please don´t just post negative comments but argue and back them up.

9 year old said...

Nintendo - Futurna ooh my god!!

Anonymous said...

falafel, I dont get where you were going with the your controller arguement. the size of the tv and your distance ( as long as the controllers signal is in range) it doesnt matter with the 3D tracking and tilt sensing the controller will offer. Its not a light gun. and it wont be like mouse liek you said, an in game camera will move around with the cursor always at the center of the screen like playing and FPS. Comon Falafel, i figured that you would at least know how this controller is gonna work. Besides Nintendo has said that using the freestyle controller will mainly just require smaller moverments with you wrist, not waving your arm around like an idiot, though that is possible to depending on the game too. So it make perfent sense on a tv, but im not getting this 3D projection, is it goingto be just a small 3D image like princess Leia from r2d2's projector or is the image gonna be huge and in my face like the game is right in front of me? anyhow other than that, pretty good article, though i doubt it will happen.

SNES Link said...

I would just like to postulate this: If it turns out that there is no projection and the games are simply on the TV as normal, will you be upset?

Anonymous said...

What about the sensors? They have to be placed on a surface"

Anonymous said...

quote by anon:

"I follow this blog and respect falafel kid for bringing legitimacy to Rev rumor mongering, but this projection thing just doesn't make any sense. Does anyone think 480p digital projection is cheap enough to be incorporated into a new gaming system? Nintendo wants to release the Rev under $300. Can anyone name one 480p digital projector that's $300? And if you own a projector you know that you have to replace bulbs, right? Those alone cost around $300.
What's bad about the projection speculation is people are now hoping for high def projection because it seems like some kind of syntactical loop-hole for Nintendo's OFFICIAL stance of NO HI-DEF. Again, do people realize how much a 720p digital projector costs? Not under 1K buddy. And then there are people trying to play connect the dots with new technologies that are just emerging. The laser-based Light Blue Optics projector? That thing doesn't even display color yet and isn't in mass production. Yet, somehow Nintendo will be able to get a hold of it and put in a $300 gaming box. Whatever.
Again, much respect to you Falafelkid, but you're causing mass hysteria among some readers and undoubtely will create Rev-haters when E3 comes and Nintendo doesn't deliver anything remotely (no pun intended) close to what's been posted on here."

man o man, you need to read up on the PVPro. its cheap. its WAY cheap. and why can't nintendo have a partnership with them to even further decrease the cost of putting it into the rev? they just need a NDA. it will be full color in late 2006. when the hell does the rev come out??? late 2006!

Anonymous said...

Falafelkid, I remember reading somewhere within the last week about a patent that would turn a console into a TV tuner. I am pretty sure that it was not in reference to the DS. Maybe Nintendo would include a TV tuner so that people could watch TV with the projector, too.

Falafelkid said...

Hi NES Link.

I would just like to postulate this: If it turns out that there is no projection and the games are simply on the TV as normal, will you be upset?

Yes. Well, I´d be intrigued why they chose to design the console so small, why they refused to show graphics at TGS and what those receptacles and the extra fan underneath the console are for. In my mind, this only makes sense when the Rev doesn´t need a tv set or computer monitor.

Anonymous said...

allright everyone,

here's an article about wireless speakers that are $40 for two speakers and a transmitter.

now, this was written april 30, 1998

1998
1998
1998

its 2006.

i have not researched anything else about it yet, but it does have faults (the author of this article seems to come up with quite a few of them).

this took me 3 minutes to find by googling "cheap wireless speakers".

here's the article (note: it has been 8 years since then so these problems may have cleared up)

this article is written concerning the May 1998 issue of Popular Home Automation.

http://www.shed.com/articles/TN.speakers.html

-yoda

pc999 said...

This is what I talked early

http://www.edimensional.com/product_info.php?ref=44&products_id=29&affiliate_banner_id=1

you can see a revien here

http://www.ghostrecon.net/html/3D-ati-review.htm

BTW (again) Nintendo dont need to castrate their console see my last post

Taylor said...

What about the gazillions of times they've said "we think that Revolution games will still look great on a standard definition TV," or the time that Iwata said that you could play it using a computer monitor? They aren't showing screens because they don't want to show unoptimized, early-version games that look like shit, and lose consumer confidence.

Anonymous said...

Probably Nintendo don't show any screenshot cause they want to focus on the experience of the controller.

The difference with other console is not how we see it but how we play it.

That's what i think.


Zaro

Anonymous said...

Don't forget- The Rev can also be played horizontally.

Emilio said...

Fal, I am sorry to say, most fo your other ideas seem possible, but This projector thing is never going to happen,

a) the extra vents could be channeled in the stand,

b) about the size, Japanese manufacturers know a small games console will sell well in the Japanese market (specially when compared to the PS3 and xbox monsters). I think it's just trying to have a small package because they can, there's is less stuff inside it than in the other two consoles.

c) the size plays against the idea of the projector as there isn't any space in there for extra components.

d) about nintendo execs comments, I believe they're just fuelling the hype and talking about their dream machines, not what they will deliver.

It would be fantastic if it was true, but i doubt it.

Anonymous said...

At brokensaints.com (http://brokensaints.com/blog/?p=312#comments)

I’m not Aries - just the guy who had the original speculation regarding the 3D display, unique wireless network, and controller deviations.

And - since I’m NOT Aries - I never promised a game showing at E3 last year. The only thing I THOUGHT they’d show would be more of a system demo/trailer…but I think they held off when they saw how weak Sony and Microsoft’s shows were.

This year? Expect something pretty damn neat…but still crazy conservative.

Will they show the hardware? Of course…and they’ll especially showcase the Rev wireless network - along with DS - all through the convention centre AND LA. 3D headgear? nope. 3D ‘presentation’? :)

Oh…and the big games they’ll push at the show - to showcase the new hardware, controller, display, and ‘communication’ aspects - will be Pilotwings, Smash Bros, Mario ‘128′, Metroid….oh yeah, and that whole Zelda thing.

Enjoy…

b

Anonymous said...

February 28, 2003

*Quotes: From IGN and shiggy

IGN Q: You took your hobby of gardening and based Pikmin on it. Will you implement your new dog into a GameCube game?

[Laughter]

Shigeru Miyamoto: Yeah, I think maybe we'll put a dog in Pikmin that will come running out and just gobble up the Pikmin.

I don't specifically take my hobbies and try to find a way to tie them to a game or anything, but one thing that I think is very interesting about dogs and raising dogs is that I think it's really funny the way people think toward dogs and the way dogs think toward people. Dogs obviously don't understand words really and yet people talk to them as if they do, and I fight myself doing this as well and I sound like a complete fool saying complete sentences to my dog which it doesn't understand whatsoever. So I think that for me right now having and interacting with a dog is a game.

Q: What new things has your new dog brought to your life and your thinking?

Shigeru Miyamoto: I definitely think that something like that has the high possibility of popping up in a game somewhere. Probably if we do it, though, it won't be a dog in the game.


He mentioned if Nintendo were to make a game like that it wouln't be a dog in the game. Nintendogs anyone? A reminder that this interview was made about a year and nine months before the launch of the DS. This interview probably inspired shiggy to make a dog game, he tought it was a good idea and probably started thinking about it and what hardware could it be for. Maybe Nintendo made the DS specially for nintendogs, as it uses all of the DS features. They started to work on their new handheld and debuted it a little over a year later( from the day of this interview) at E3 2004 working with some small demos.

Just letting everyone know that quotes don't really mean anything until something is created, and that people's ideas or beliefs can quickly change.

pi said...

To : Falafelkid
... Did you think like me ?

"The BOMB" you already know was dropp by some one who "Only" show us the revolution's information just befor nintendo ready.

But. Now he decide to tell us more.
... I think ...
This might be the bomb inside bomb. Nintendo may ready to show us soon.

Falafelkid said...

Hi Emilio.

a) the extra vents could be channeled in the stand,

What does that mean? That makes no sense. If the Rev was meant to rest inside the stand at all times then that vent would have been next to the other one or on another side. ´Channeled into the stand´ means a covered vent which is useless.

b) about the size, Japanese manufacturers know a small games console will sell well in the Japanese market (specially when compared to the PS3 and xbox monsters). I think it's just trying to have a small package because they can, there's is less stuff inside it than in the other two consoles.

The sheer size significantly curtails the hardware that can go into the console, obviously. Nintendo would not sacrifice hardware power for design purposes only.

c) the size plays against the idea of the projector as there isn't any space in there for extra components.

To some extent, yes. But projectors have gotten tiny recently. Also, there could just be a peripheral.

d) about nintendo execs comments, I believe they're just fuelling the hype and talking about their dream machines, not what they will deliver.

Nintendo have been very coy in the past. Their recent boldness is highly unusual - and building up hype that you cannot deliver on is very, very dangerous in this business. Nintendo would not be making that mistake.

ogo said...

I hope your right pi

great article Fal.

Really intresting. How does everyone think this relates to the discussion about 3D movies a few days ago?

Eithan said...

Fal said…
Yes. Well, I´d be intrigued why they chose to design the console so small, why they refused to show graphics at TGS and what those receptacles and the extra fan underneath the console are for. In my mind, this only makes sense when the Rev doesn´t need a tv set or computer monitor.

Nintendo chose a smaller console design to further distance themselves from their competitors, whose designs are large, noisy, and visually unappealing. They refused to show graphic at TGS because graphics are not the focus of Nintendo’s strategy. Until they openly display the controller in action (E3) it would be self-defeating to show screen shots. Much like the DS, screen shots do it no real justice. But, when you see how intuitive the interface is COMBINED with decent graphics the system becomes appealing. And, in the case of the DS vs. the PSP is actually wins. If history can repeat itself, the revolution will pull the same draw when compared to the 360 and the PS3. It’s strange, but the fact that the DS is underpowered makes its victory over the PSP that much sweeter. I think the Rev is hoping to ride of that same level of indie hype.

I know I’m not preaching anything that you don’t already know, Fal. But I give this projection thing about a 5% chance of actually happening. There’s way too many reasons against it.

Darth Link said...

I also want to not that in an interview IGN posted recently, Matt asks Reggie that if they would be able to live up to the hype. Reggie's answer is VERY bold, he said they would surpass the hype.

I nearly fell off my chair.

I mean, one thing is live up to the hype, but completely surpass it?!?!

I wonder if he is aware of all this. Of all the things we've been saying. All the speculation, all the hope.

I don't think so. I think he was reffering to the official info they've released and the fact that there's more, not that everything we imagine is true.

Anonymous said...

Hi Falafel,
"...But it needn´t be 480p to be amazing, that´s for sure. As to bulbs, the cost of one is down to the Lumen they generate. I have an old Sony beamer which has a lower output than today´s models, but it uses standard halogen bulbs for less than five bucks...
On the company´s homepage you can see all the necessary hardware elements for yourself:...
And if you don´t believe that the Rev will work with anything else than an oridnary screen, please try and explain at least some of the aspects I listed. Why is it so small that they are effectively castrating their own machine? Why did they refuse to show graphics at TGS, if there is no last secret that would be given away by showing them? Why those receptacles and the extra fan underneath the console, resting on the stand? Please don´t just post negative comments but argue and back them up."


Besides your Sony, I haven't seen any LCD projectors that accept a standard halogen bulb you can get at Home Depot. Projectors normally have non-standard lamps that are unique to a manufacturer or model. Halogen usually isn't a popular bulb for front projection in a home theater environment. This is from projectorcentral's bulb FAQ:

What is the difference between a halogen and metal halide lamp?

Halogen bulbs last approximately 70 hours (per bulb). Metal halide lamps last approximately 1000 to 2000 hours.

Halogen lamps are less expensive ($75-$100) than metal halide lamps ($300-$400). The type of lamp your projector uses will be determined by the manufacturer.


I just can't see Nintendo making parents buy $75 bulbs after 70 hours of gameplay. (Actually $150 since POC's technology requires 2 LCD projectors.) These are the guys that removed rumble functionality from the Wave Bird because it reduced battery life. Also, front projection has to be displayed in a light controlled room for optimal viewing. Is this something the average person would do? I can see hardcore gamers playing games in a dark room, but how about Nintendo's new demographic of old men and women?
The $100 price quote you got from POC may have only applied to the software interface. There's no way they meant they could have a $100 solution that included the 3 1.6GHz CPUs, 2 LCD projectors, and 512 MB DDR RAM per CPU. IGN has already published comments from Rev developers that have said that the RAM will be much less than 512MB.

As for why the Rev is small, didn't Nintendo already go on record that they want a fast (in terms of load times), quiet, and small machine? The size of the machine has less to do with hiding technological secrets than it does to appealing to the iPOD design-focused consumer. We've seen this with the DS Lite and with many of Nintendo's glowing comments about the disruptive nature of the iPOD.
No screenshots of the Rev means the silicon isn't done. Developers have already backed this up, no? Nintendo, unlike Sony with Killzone or EA with Madden 06, doesn't try to sell pre-rendered animation as "approximations" of what in-game graphics are.
Hey, I'm a huge Nintendo fanboy. It's the only next-gen system that I will preorder. But I've already come to grips with the reality of what Nintendo will deliver based on the facts of what we know vs. my own and other's private fantasies. I understand that I'm buying a nicely designed Wi-Fi enabled console whose next-generation feature is not improved graphics, but a new and unique gameplay interface. And Nintendo already knows based on the DS's performance against the PSP, it's all you really need.

Falafelkid said...

Hi Anonym:

Besides your Sony, I haven't seen any LCD projectors that accept a standard halogen bulb you can get at Home Depot. Projectors normally have non-standard lamps that are unique to a manufacturer or model.

Ever wonder why? Well, there´s more than one reason. Of course, halogen has less power, i.e. Lumen.

I just can't see Nintendo making parents buy $75 bulbs after 70 hours of gameplay. (Actually $150 since POC's technology requires 2 LCD projectors.)

A standard halogen bulb costs less than five bucks.

The $100 price quote you got from POC may have only applied to the software interface. There's no way they meant they could have a $100 solution that included the 3 1.6GHz CPUs, 2 LCD projectors, and 512 MB DDR RAM per CPU.

That quote definitely included an entire system. I also said that some solution do not require such a powerful CPU cluster. Apparently, some don´t need one at all.

As for why the Rev is small, didn't Nintendo already go on record that they want a fast (in terms of load times), quiet, and small machine? The size of the machine has less to do with hiding technological secrets than it does to appealing to the iPOD design-focused consumer.

Seriously, I dare you to stack three DVDs and then compare that size to the PS2, the Xbox, the Gamecube. No way did Nintendo design it that small for design reasons only.

No screenshots of the Rev means the silicon isn't done. Developers have already backed this up, no? Nintendo, unlike Sony with Killzone or EA with Madden 06, doesn't try to sell pre-rendered animation as "approximations" of what in-game graphics are.

That is true. But they could show graphics running on the dev kits. They have been out since June and Nintendo have, in the past, shown footage running on dev kits only. I´ll check when they sent out GCN footage to tv stations, but I am sure the Cube was not finished then.

Shoxware Games said...

A little Update (like always): N-SPACE (Geist) today confirmed, that they are developing a title for nintendo revolution, and that they will hire more people for that project!

It could be the mysterious title "Hope", which is listed on the developer's official homepage, or a sequel to Geist! Well, what do you guys think?

Anonymous said...

Please, I don't want to hear another word about the rev having 3d projection capabilities. It is 100% NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

The rev is tiny - yes, that may mean that its portable. But even if it included brand new technology used in mini laser projectors
(http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/laserprojectorscellphones.php), you simply can't fit a projector inside that box with all the hardware besides. You think that the smallest home console nintendo, and possibly anyone, has ever produced is going to contain processors, flash memory, fans, a disc drive, etc, AND a friggin' PROJECTOR?!! Thats absolutely crazy to even consider.

Secondly, all projectors, not to mention cutting edge, not-even-on-the-market, laser projectors, or even stereoscopic capable projectors, are quite expensive. I don't know what to say about that <$100 price quote, but its complete B.S. Projectors are expensive technology, PERIOD.

Yes, the slanted design is purely an aesthetic design. Have you seen that thing in profile? Thats one artistic design, IMO. Looks much cooler than a PS2 standing on its side, I think. Besides, the rev would have to be angled to project onto a wall or screen, not at the player, unless you're thinking about beaming images straight onto the player's retinae..

Anyway, I want to see console games played in full 3d as much as anyone, but its just not gonna happen this time around. There's a better chance of a visor add-on than a built-in projector, but even that has a very, very slim chance of happening. Sorry guys, but its time let go of this false hope.

Darth Link said...

Well, it turns out it was not true:

http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=9695&cb=0.9494549

Nintendo officially said that the stand is just a stand.

Of course, they also said there weren't any plans on a DS redesign and look what happened a couple of days later.

But can it happen more than once in less than a month?

Kathrin.Frank said...

Hi Andy
schoen von dir zu hoeren. Ja, ich habe deine Sms bekommen und mich total gefreut!!!! Echt schoen. leider konnte ich dir bisehr noch nicht antworten, obwohl ich staendig dran gedacht habe, danke zu sagen, aber oft kommen wir erst total spaet heim oder das internet ist so schlecht dass schreiben keine wirkliche freude macht. dann tipp ich nur schnell meinen blog, und so viel hab ich ja auch noch nicht! wie geht es dir denn? Ich hoffe doch gut, alles gut in der Arbeit, wie ist es ohne mich. (-:, doch bestimmt langweilig. Sobald ich in buenos aires bin (in 10 Tagen) schreib ich dir mal ne ausfuerhliche Mail. Ansonsten hoffe ich holt dich die Vogelgrippe nicht, esse einfach Veggis, dann kriegste es bestimmt nicht. Wetter wird in Koeln ja auch bald besser. So vielen dank fuer deine Comments. Hoffe ich bekomme auch weiterhin welche, und du hoerst von mir mal wiklich ausfuerhlich. Gruesse an Reiner, was macht der? Der bloedian meldet sich garnicht.
Saludos
Kathe!!!!!!!

YankeeHKM said...

I know this is going to sound "blasphemic", but I have a friend that works at Nintendo World. When I went there today we were talking about Animal Crossing, blah blah. Then she told me that when the DS Lite is out in Japan, the day afterwards it'll be in New York...just a few copies in Chinatown..w00t w00t. I might pick one up, or get a pic of hers just to show u guys. We got to talken about how busy it gets at Nintendo World and she told me it was crazy during Black Friday till New Years. Then she messed up. I then cunningly asked stated "Man, this year it's going to be pretty busy huh?"...hoping she'll divulge some info. And she, in her moment of vulnerbility, that Right after E3 when they show off some great new stuff and during the summer it is going to be extrememly busy.. I smiled, trying to act stupid as if I didn't catch on and let her believe I peiced it together inaccurately. I responded..."oh, because the DS Lite is comming out right?" And she said no, and I quickly asked her was it because of the revolution...when is that comming out? and she said she couldn't tell me, otherwise she'd have to kill me. But, clearly - something big is comming in the Summer for the people that reside in the United States. I just hope its the revolution.

knoo said...

Hi!

I´m reading your blog frequently and like it alot, now is the first time I want to add my two cents:

I think the reason why the Revolution is so small is much simpler.
Nintendo decided that they don´t want to compete in the "Graphics War", they set their focus (and so, there money) in finding new ways to play: the Controller.

Now because they didn´t want to improve graphics power that much anyway, there is no need for a big shell anymore. Look at a laptop with and up-to-date mobile graphics card, substract the harddisk and you have your 3 DVDs stacked up.

So I don´t think there is much behind the small size, they could do it, so they did it because it looks really great, that´s all.


So little question: Someone spoke of the final secret as the "third secret". Which other secret was there besides the controller?

knoo

Taylor said...

You know those indents you highlighted, the ones on the back of the stand? They are probably for the big stickers that say things like "300 Watts | Serial # 190781234891249142 revision 2a | Opening this machine voids the warrantee | Do not chew on the electrical cord | Call 1 800 MARIOFIX for troubleshooting problems." They're on every console, and they have to go SOMEWHERE on the Revolution in such a way that tehy won't muck up the industrial design.

Anonymous said...

Nintendo seperated the DS from the PSP with dual screens. So if they want to seperates the Revolution from the PS3 and 360 I suppose 3D projection is the way to go. They said it themselve the Revolution is suppose to be a bigger better DS. And stop underestimating the Revs power because of its size you guys. My gamecube says high by the way. You know the smallest console this gen. And the second most powerful.

Anonymous said...

One thing is for certain, they are hiding something big. Otherwise we wouldn't keep hearing all this "we are worried about someone stealing our ideas" nonsense. And it must be bigger than the controller since they showed us that. But I'm sure that it is something that 3rd party developers know nothing about, otherwise it would have leaked by now. MEANING, it's definintely not gonna be something to do with 3d display nor would it have something to do with projections. Also I think you can knock out the idea that the system is "portable" due to the fact that Nintendo has already discussed that they ahve to put up special walls between kiosks at the upcoming e3 to stop the controllers from interfering with each other. It wouldn't make much sense to have a portable system that interferes with it's own ilk.

taroto said...

I read your blog allot, love the stuff and that's a pretty far out idea.
I found a link on n-sider to another guy's idea that's identical to yours, but even deeper and freekier http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/
show_msgs.php?topic_id=24328400.

trip1eX said...

Man I want to believe, but there's too much reality in the way.

The cost and size of a standard 480i/p projector elminates projection being a part of the Revolution.

I've never seen a 3 DVD case sized projector in my life. And that's not even taking into consideration it also has to have a DVD player, GAmecube ports, gpu, cpu, fans, yada yada yada.

That's one big ass strike against projection.

The 2nd big ass strike is noise and heat. Projectors aren't quiet and they aren't cool to the touch. It's not something friendly and inviting.

3rd, the cost of a 480i/p projector is $500 plus. And that's just the projector part. (Remember we have a console to throw in as well with a fairly state of the art gpu.)

4th, setup in the home. Where am I and half the other consumers on the planet going to mount the thing? ON a table in the middle of the room. We have to move our walls then and pull the shades down? Do we need a screen too?

Anyway one can see reality gets in the way here.

Plus regular projection on a wall isn't different than showing the game on a TV.

YOu also can't get 3d projection onto a wall without you wearing some kind of glasses.

Next the idea they are going to project onto a sheet of glass is ludicrous at this point in time. I absolutely can't Nintendo shipping 19" sized pieces of glass with their console. And that's small compared to today's TVs.

Nah it's absolutely none of those features.

There's too much reality in the way.

Could they do goggles? Yeah they could. I don't see it being for the non-gamer and casual gamer audience tho that they want to reach, but if they included it but only for on the go maybe. I still have a hard time believing that, but you know the virtual boy was 3d monochrome 10 years ago. I'm sure they could improve on that today.

Still what benefit would the goggles give you. Would the screen move as you tilted your head? Or would you just get a 3d effect?

I don't know. I can't see it really.

I think they haven't shown any games, but I don't MS showed any games prior to last E3 either.

Sony has shown nothing also except CGI graphics.

I think a good reason also for Nintendo not showing graphics is because they'll lose the screenshot battle. They'd rather people experience the games. That's the way they'll 'see' the difference and ultimate benefit of Nintendo's approach.

Take the DS. The DS screenshots look like crap mostly. They just don't so the system justice.

Anyway I want to believe, but I don't think the time is ripe yet for Miyamoto's vision to come true. I believe Nintendo is looking at gaming beyond the TV screen. Reality tho tells me the technology just isn't there yet for the home consumer.

trip1eX said...

Anyway the portable thing could be possible.

But I think the Revolution wirelessly transmitting to your TV is a better example of the portable thing.

I do remember seeing some Nintendo blurbs about the whole 'wireless' experience. This would definitely be a next step.

The benefit here is you sit the console on your coffee table or inn table and load your game discs into it without getting up off your ass. You could also watch movies without the hassle of walking to your Tv.

But an extra 'receiver' or two and you could easily move it between TVs in your house.

Ok well the power cord would get in the way if it were on your coffee table and well it's a not really a big feature. Not something worth keeping secret. And probably not worth saving your ass from walking up to the console.

YankeeHKM said...

Would the 3D projection be like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjDI1yAFKdQ&search=nintendo%20revolution

max said...

Perrin Kaplan today on IGN "The 'new generation' represents a brand new way to experience entertainment, physically, mentally and most important --emotionally."
No way a 3D projection is giving people new experiences. You of course would say WOW tecnically but gameplay as an experience would not be affected by that.

Falafelkid said...

Hi YankeeHKM. That´s not 3D.

Grandmaster B said...

I think I am going to go to sleep........Good article Fal but a majority of the posts here by people are drivel and just adding two cents. Quite boring.

If you are going to debunk the article, at least try a lot harder people. Going through 90 something posts of garbage gets a bit tiring.

Sorry for my attitude but really, come on........entertain me.

HereticPB said...

More like fans to cool the system while its laying on its side.

And if you look at the image that version of the Revolution has feet for standing normally which means there is room for the fan to circulate under the system.

Yanko Heinze said...

Hello falafelkid,



I have opened a blog where I wrote an article called "Possible Revolution memory architecture?" I think it could be interesting for you. Thanks for the time.




Atte.



Yanko Heinze Yslas
yheinze@pre.com.mx
http://isc.pre.com.mx

Anonymous said...

Hello Falafelkid,

you are saying that Nintendo is probably creating some kind of 3d device that will be included in the Nintendo Revolution.But shouldn't specs about a possible 3d imaging system already have been handed out to 3rd party developers? Otherwise it could jeopardise a lot of support from big software companies. It could be that Nintendo's new technique has the capability to choose between stereoscopic 3d and a "normal" mode for games like the current generation. But as a 3rd party developer I would not be happy to find out that I was developing a game for the Nintendo Revolution that suddenly is outdated because it was not developed to take advantage of Nintendo's projector technology.

I do believe you are on to something. Like you said, Nintendo isn't the company to make unfounded statements and does seem extremely confident lately. And I do not believe that a billiondollar company like Nintendo would deliver a weaker console just because they are betting big on the new controller and cheaper prices.
Recently IGN had an article about a periphal like the Revolution controller that was meant to be released for the gamecube. But the gamecube sales were so low that Nintendo decided not to use this technology for the GameCube. They decided to market their new controller for a new system, the Revolution, a device that appeals much more to the consumer in visual appearance than the gamecube ever did. But if Nintendo already had developed the technology for the controller, it makes you wonder in which areas Nintendo focused it's research for the Revolution. It is safe to assume that Nintendo will not take the same path as Sony and Microsoft because it already saw with the gamecube that this road is a dead end. But it is also illogically to assume that Nintendo will spend less on research just because it is delivering a system that lacks the horsepower of the competing systems and because it is more affordable. Nintendo will be putting a lot of money in research beyond the controller I think. Stereoscopic 3d could be just one direction.
Sorry for the long post, and sorry for the bad english. english is not my motherlanguage. Keep up the good work.

Anonymous said...

Hey, long time reader, never poster.

This is a long one, so skip if you want:)

Great article, so good i just had to post my two cents in reply.

Personally i love the idea of the revolution being a projector but i find the logistics more than anything to be a problem. Say for example you are using the controller to play on a projected screen. That means that you must have the console between yourself and the screen, therefore the room would need to be quite large.

{you} -- rev -- wall

It really wouldnt work aswell if you had to stand or sit beside the console itself. demonstrations show the controller moving to a from the screen, but if you remove the idea of a wireless sensor to be placed near the screen, then the rev has to act as your point of reference. Even with the sensor though most people would not want to set the console up in the middle of their room, most have a corner or area all set up for use of tv dvd and consoles. if it didnt have a sensor(see later) but did project the image, how would the rev know where the image was being projected too? what if your room is too small or dark and so you have to project the image onto a wall only a few feet away?

When you spoke about the tv being restrictive i think you missed the point. If you use the controller as a wand it does not need to point toward the tv. I would guess that it would be set up so that its initial position would be set as a game started and then the rev would determine your movements for each level from that new start point. Similarly any movement , be it in a fps or a cvooking game, would treat the camera/or object being manipulated on screen as controlled by your movements. It would not matter if you moved outside the screen as the rev would simply translate that to a larger turn. If you moved a sword say on screen and took it in a wide arc, the object would move through 3d space in the game, but the camera in the game would not. This type of feedback between console and controller should remove the need for a sensor, and perhaps aid in use of a projector by removing the need for any calibration.

even still, someone made the point of the console lying on its side, and indeed i remember iwata demonstrating the console as being both vertical and horizontal in its loveliness. It would have to have a sensor in it to determine its angle of use(or i suppose a startup menu).

Those who speak of graphic capabilities should remember that the game cube was capable of 480p. Plus it is well known that nintendo spent alot of money developing a new graphics system and that in every generation their graphics have more than held their own. The choice to not support high def is meant solely to reduce possible alienation of consumers. In the long run, even without high def it wont make as much of a difference. xbox360 and ps3 deliver high def, but neither have shown their true potential(ps3 hasnt shown anything really). Current xbox360 games use only one core fully, and they will get better at utilising them as time goes on. Looking at current gen you can see the improvements, bnot only in graphics but AI too, as developers milk the power available for all its worth.

I wouldnt be surprised if the graphics on the rev rivalled current 360 games at 720i. a good reason for not showing graphics yet is because they dont want people to think that they are part of the ps3 Vs 360 graphics war.

dj said...

oke that would mean that we could have a beamer for lets say 200 euro. thats realy cheap. and if its 3d too. I know lots of organisations that would buy one.

Stabby said...

Falafelkid: have you ever seen a gamecube? It has 2 fans, just like the Revolution. If you hold your hand before it, you will notice that one sucks in fresh air and hot air comes back out through the other fan.

The size is also easy to explain: Nintendo wants to make a small affordable console that blends in with your DVD-player and such.

Anonymous said...

3D projection is not going to happen.Fal seems likr you neber saw the TGS video where we see a television at the end????!!

Anonymous said...

http://www.3dh.net/index.htm

This is Nintendo's new partners for projection. The Revolution will have projection technology...

Check it out...

Anonymous said...

DIY LCD Projector with Texas DLP acheavable quality without the rainbow effect for 500$ (depending on what you already have). It use MH400U type light bulb (metal halide)(30000 lumens, 20000 hours, 400 watt, 15-25$)

The whole ideo is dissambling a 15'TFT screen , removing the backlight and putting the lcd and the circuit in a custom made case with the light bulb and a 400 watt ballast !

http://www.lumenlab.com/

custom projet photo : http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=476&st=0

Grandmaster B said...

3D projection is not going to happen.Fal seems likr you neber saw the TGS video where we see a television at the end????!!

Seems like you see the liquor bottle.

Just because you see a TV (of course he has seen this, who do u think he is?) doesnt mean Nintendo doesnt have other plans. If they never showed a TV people would most likely assume there is some type of other visualation device for sure.

I'm not saying that there is but just dont assume because there is a TV in the demo of the controller that there is nothing else to it.

Plus it will be connectable to other video devices as Nintendo have stated.

Stabby said...

ABOUT THE LUMENLAB: are the movies on those pictures of DVD resolution (480p) or HD (720p)? Are 720p movies on a DVD even possible? Or can you download movies in that resolution?

Movies look extremely sharp but games look really bad. However if the movies were 480p, there's nothing to worry about. It would be ideal for playing Rev games, so I might try it out.

In case no one knows, could someone ask the about the resolution in that topic? I have registered but for some reason I can't reply.

Anonymous said...

"We have shipped over a thousand controller dev kits to developers so that they can begin getting experience with the controller mechanics."

http://rapidshare.de/files/
13869664/DCM111405005.jpg.html

dont know if its related to revolution..

what are you thinking about this one? at least you can see some sensors..

Anonymous said...

lumenlab use TFT lcd therefore it use a VGA or DVI connector, the projection quality depend on what resolution you pc is set and what codec your film is and what native resolution is the lcd.

Anonymous said...

here's a nice article from tom's hardware guide.

http://www.twitchguru.com/2006/02/22/a_candid_conversation_with_david_sheff/

good read (at least to me). maybe i'll pick up his book.

the article talks about David Sheff's experiences inside the world of games and how things have progressed.

Stabby said...

About lumenlab: I'm talking about games that support 480p or even lower. The resolution of a DVD is 720p, so it looks much sharper than any game NOT made for PC-X360-PS3.

480p doesn't look that good on PC monitors and HDTV's because the image is stretched. Try comparing 480p to 720p on a HDTV or set the resolution of a PC game to 640x480. You'll notice the difference, so there must be a difference on the lumenlab too.

I'd like to make one myself but if 480p will look like crap, then I don't wonna waste my money on it.

Anonymous said...

here's something interesting about a dissappearing link to a patent. found it on the revolution report boards.

http://boards.revolutionreport.net
/index.php?showtopic=5409

speculate away!

910do said...

Hi Fal',
I have a question for you, The Revo have two lights in the front , one is from the Disk trail "the blue lines" and the other one is the dot just by the power button, I wonder why why nintendo is doing that, two lights on the front , I mean shouldn't be one enough !!!! ( the blue trail light ), what dp you think Fal ????

Thunder Emperor said...

who said rev can't pack a punch in small form size factor , take a look at this

http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/22/shuttle-slims-down-with-xpc-x100-form-factor/


It might not be quite as tiny tiny as that Viiv uDMS P60 machine we saw recently, but Shuttle's new XPC X100 is looking like quite the contender for the mini PC crown. The 2.13-inch tall WMCE unit holds a 1.83GHz Core Duo processor, 512MB of RAM, ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 graphics which are upgradeable via MXM, 250GB SATA II HDD, digital audio, 802.11a/b/g WiFi, a memory card reader, DVI, and TV out. Shuttle hasn't quite pinned everything down, so we don't know the price yet, and those specs could change, but we'll know more soon since they're displaying the X100 at CeBIT next month.

That is a small powerfull machine, faster than what I am running, which is an athlon xp 2.3, 1.5gig of ram and ati 9600 pro 256meg

LAUGHING MAN said...

Here's the direct link to the vanishing patent:

Laser projection Display
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220050140832%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20050140832&RS=DN/20050140832

Anonymous said...

Something you all should know about patents having waded into them myself is that a company can request the right to have a patent kept confidentially for up to 18 months.

Lf_sIcKmAn said...

Hey guys... i think u should all chill... i mean... i have been a fanboy for all my life and as i and many more have found out... the only thing speculation does is create this MEGAHYPE that no matter what can never be surpassed... u should all just stay cool and wait to be amazed... i really dont care for what ANYONE ELSE says... only nintendo knows what the rev is all about and speculation is not good...

good job with the site falafelkid... been a reader for a while... :D

Anonymous said...

Hey Falafelkid, some poeple from the IGN Revolution forum found this site: http://www.3dh.net/index.htm

It seems pretty intresting. Care to look into it and see if they are working with nintendo?

Or maybe introduce it to your readers to show them that 3d projection is right on the edge of mass production.

Thanks,
Shakhak

trip1eX said...

Hey btw it's ironic you promote the idea of projection and the vertical nature of the REv as a reason for that, but yet the picture you use for your article shows the REv sitting horizontally. :)


Sorry it jaust dawned on me.

Anonymous said...

Ehem,
I think the misterious slot is for DS cartridges, which can be loaded with Downloaded games from the internet,
I would like it to be 3D projector as well , but hey we are all free to have a dream

Nice site, by the way.

trip1eX said...

Here I decided to counter all your points with what I think are way more reasonable common-sense assumptions.

* The console stand:

Your own picture on the front page of your article shows the REv horizontallly. The PS2 could stand vertical or be displayed horizontally. I believe it has been mentioned by Nintendo themselves that the Revolution could be displayed in either position. Nintendo said today the stand is a stand. The console tilting in the vertical position could easily be accounted for by saying it's a design asthetic. It's pleasing to the eye.

* The size:

Well Nintendo has said graphics are good enough. They have also most customers don't have hi-def. And so they aren't going to chase hi-def. Therefore they don't need as great of specs at 480i and lesser specs means smaller pieces of silicon and less heat and thus smaller console. The 'Cube was comparable to the specs of the Xbox and PS2 and yet was half the size of an xbox. It's not hard to see from this that the Rev would be even smaller 5 years later than the Cube. If anything it would be more shocking, and your theory would have more weight, if the Rev was as big as the 360 or PS3. Also try and find me a tiny projector the size of what the REv is supposed to be.

* Nintendo´s refusal to show graphics:

Easily explained by saying they don't want to get into a screenshot war. And by the fact the 360 didn't show any games prior to E3 last year. Sony also hasn't shown any playable games yet and has only showed CGI cutscenes. So it's just not a big conspiracy. Nintendo also would rather show the experience of using the new controller with the new games.

* The controller:

They have perfectly demonstrated the use of the controller on regular television sets. And it has been shown that indeed you use small wrist movements to navigate on the screen with total precision and accuracy. That given there's nothing stopping a developer from supporting full arm motions in their game.

* Price:

If there's anything price means, it's that expensive technologies like 3d projection aren't going to be in the REv. You seem to think 3d projection can be done for a $100 in the home. But I think that's b.s. when you can't go Best Buy and buy a regular low-end projector anything south of $500 and I'm being generous here. Your argument for 3d projection would more valid if Nintendo indeed was hitting a higher pricepoint. But their strategy seems to be one of undercutting their competitors in price.

* The technical drawing:

Nintendo said the stand is just a stand today. And nothing on that drawing says fan to me. IT just says vent. Also having extra receptabcles is something the Cube had on the bottom-side of it. Yes that was the side it sat on.

* Quotes:

More likely these quotes are an indication of where Miyamoto would like to go with gaming. I mean I definitely agree the TV screen is limiting. And who wouldn't like to see big 3-d virtual worlds surrounding their self? Anyway many of those quotes are pre-Remote Controller showing and the controller itself explains away many of them.

* Conclusion:

I think I've easily shown that any of your points are easily explained away with more reasonable and realistic evidence. YOu definitely have uncovered technologies in the works out there. But I don't think you've provided anything more than a vague leap to the reality of today specifically in the home console market at price of $200 or less with a console that's the size of 3 DVD boxes.

Anonymous said...

hey trip1ex,

have you been in a coma the last few days???

"Also try and find me a tiny projector the size of what the REv is supposed to be." <----- thats what you said.

here, for the love of god.
http://www.lightblueoptics.com/Light_Blue_Optics_PVPro.pdf

WHY NOT TRY READING BEFORE POSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



and here is also another point you said...
"If there's anything price means, it's that expensive technologies like 3d projection aren't going to be in the REv. You seem to think 3d projection can be done for a $100 in the home. But I think that's b.s...."

GOD DAMMIT, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE READ THE PDF FILE I HAVE SUPPLIED FOR YOU.

or you can go here.

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/laserprojectorscellphones.php

its way cheap, they want to put it in PDAs, cell phones, etc.


this is what we have been talking about forever now. get with the program.

zerorules44 said...

Here is a reason why it can't be 3D projection.

This Article is from IGN:
Revolution's Big Secret
Miyamoto says there's still more to show.

by Matt Casamassina

December 2, 2005 - Nintendo
bigwigs including Shigeru Miyamoto spoke at Japan's Digital Interactive Entertainment Conference today and while no specifics on games or hardware were revealed, some intriguing Revolution gossip was spun all the same.

Miyamoto again talked about the possibilities of the Revolution controller, and referred to the peripheral's nunchuck-style analog add-on.
"This [controller] isn't just targeted to new users, but was also designed with making good past games more easily played. First person shooters should be more easily played. So, we came up with the idea for a nunchuk attachment. You move around in 3D using your left hand and point with your right hand," he said.

Most interesting, though, was what Miyamoto didn't talk about. The Nintendo legend flat-out stated that there's more to be revealed about the Revolution controller.

"Also," Miyamoto added before exiting the stage, "there are still secrets to this controller, and these will be revealed next year."

The news is in line with Nintendo of Europe demi-god Jim Merrick's recent statements that not everything about the Revolution controller has been shown.

Readers can expect full disclosure on the peripheral, the console, and its games at the Electronics Entertainment Expo 2006, which kicks off in Los Angeles next May.





This article is from a while ago and states that the last secret is in the CONTROLLER!!!

Sorry falafelkid may be you did not read about it enough.

Falafelkid said...

Hi zerorules44.

This article is from a while ago and states that the last secret is in the CONTROLLER!!!

Sorry falafelkid may be you did not read about it enough.


I did read that article, of course. And I read a whole bunch of other articles. Did you not know that there was a huge discussion about whether IGN and other media had misinterpreted the statement? The original statement was quoted by Kotaku:

“… you could use that extra peripheral with the controller for numchakus.

There’s another secret. But I’m not going to go into that here. That’ll be for a later date.”


They too interpreted that to mean that there´s another secret to the controller. But that does not necessarily follow from that quote. And other media have not made that assumption.

I know for a fact that the last secret is going to be bigger than the controller announcement - and that would strongly suggest that that secret is not to be found in the controller.

Additionally, there have been rumours of more than one last secret. So, either way, you cannot dismiss my hypothesis this easily.

P! said...

"The sheer size significantly curtails the hardware that can go into the console, obviously. Nintendo would not sacrifice hardware power for design purposes only."

More likely they decided to sacrifice power for philosophical reasons (dimishing returns etc), much like they did with the DS, and that ALLOWED them to pack it into a small design, which mirrors their design choices with the GameCube.

They wouldn't sacrifice power for the sake of fitting a console + a PROJECTOR into a space the size of three dvd cases either. Your logic doesn't hold up on that one, sorry :(

Meo said...

Hi Falafelkid,

This is the first time I comment here in your blog, and I would like to congratulate you for the work you have been doing. I've been following it for quite some time now, and your blog is, by far, the best revolution blog I've ever seen. keep up at the good work:D

Now, I would like to know your opinion about a recent interview that Reggie gave, in which he says that he as never seen the Nintendo ON clip. But, if you search on Gamespot site for articles related to E3 2005, there is an interview in which he said that we actually SAW the clip and he thinks that it was great, and he even said that Pablo Belmonte should be working for them. Now, I'm not a "conspiracy believer" guy, but why would he want to lie about something that he already said he saw? What's your thoughts about this, fal??

Best regards,
Vasco

Anonymous said...

I read looked into the www.3dh.net site too. Whoa! it's all coming together dude

thanx IGN forum posters

trip1eX said...

anonymous, first off cool your jets. There's 115 posts in this dam thread and if you're go to post as anonymous well then don't get offended if someone doesn't read your crap. And make an account for gallsakes.

Second you're quoting some website of some small startup that just demonstrated their tech about 2 wks ago in it's evaulation form.

Sure they want to put it into small devices, but you have no idea of what their time frame is to get this technology to market and what cost it would take. Hell you don't even know this technology works.

There's a ton of startups and many are selling products that will never see the light of day and technologies that will pan out.

You also don't know the quality of such a projector. Do you really think that suddenly this technology will project onto walls with the quality of a regular 480i/p TV set? Come on now you're smoking crack. I'm here to tell you that this stuff here and now and this year won't come out and look as good as a regular tv.

I'm just using common sense to explain things away. I mean if suddenly you can buy a $200 console and get a TV with it that looks as good as a regular TV then Nintendo will suddenly destroy the old television market in 2 seconds. I mean then I should be able to hook up my vcr and watch TV thru the thing. Hell I'll buy a bunch to just watch TV in every room.

Seriously one can debunk this crap just by having some common sense.

Another leap you seem to be taking is throwing 3d on top of this projector stuff. NOt only do we have to take a leap of faith and think we're going to get 42" full color 480p quality Tv screen on our wall from a box the size of 3 DVD cases that also doubles as a console, but we have to also buy into this thing doing all this plus it's now in 3d and again it's all priced at $200.

Nah you make a mistake of jumping to conclusions and skipping over the common sense and the reality.

Realmy said...

Two articles of interest for you, Fal:

This first explain WHY Nintendo implemented the idea of super backwards downloads: http://www.4colorrebellion.com/archives/2006/02/22/japan-planning-to-ban-vintage-gaming/

This second is new new concenring the newest, and nearly final, Dev kits: http://revolution.ign.com/articles/690/690730p1.html

Anonymous said...

I think everyone is going about trying to solve this puzzle entirely the wrong way.

Let's try to think like Nintendo's internal dev teams would have been about the time GCN launched.

When Yamauchi stepped down, he asked only that Iwata kept Nintendo on a path of innovation. Obviously, games and consoles are inherently limited by how we can interface with them. I submit that this would have been the first challenge the development teams would have faced.

What is the best way to open up the fundamental way we interact with games? Pressing a button on a controller to emulate a human action onscreen is something less than satisfying, especially for people who don't consider themselves gamers. But how do you achieve this? Well, we already know that answer; the Revolution controller. It opens games up to the human range of motions and effectively breaks from convention to allow better UI.

After that hurdle has been jumped, Nintendo would want to explore the new gameplay that this new control mechanic allows. We have precious few facts that help us divine what this might mean.

Here's what we DO know; the Revolution will be playable on any conventional television.

This is more telling than it may seem, however.

Ask yourself; how is the Revolution controller different from previous incarnations?

Simply put, it uses a three-dimensional interface.

**Question 1: With that in mind, what does the logical display seem to be?**

Most will answer 3D graphics.

I believe this is the conclusion Nintendo's developers came to as well.

**Question 2: But HOW do you implement 3D graphics in a console that WILL work with any and every television?**

THAT is the question I think we should be trying to answer, and unfortunately it simply is not with a projector.

In fact, the only way I can think of to do so would be glasses, which would actually mesh with comment's we've all heard from certain movie producers.

So, my challenge to you is this; think of a new answer to either Question 1 or 2.

-Nazuraki

P! said...

Just another aside, there is no way that Nintendo would throw $100-$150 worth of projection tech (which I imagine would only get you a fairly cheap dodgy projector in the first place) into a console that they wanted to keep under $299. ESPECIALLY if were intended as an 'optional extra'..

"Oh you could play through the cheap projector that we made you pay for, or you could play it through your television, making your projector completely superfluous!"

Seriously just not going to happen. It's just not Nintendo's style.

Anonymous said...

not nintendo's style you say, p!

what about virtualBoy, what do you cal that

Anonymous said...

Occums Razor:

If 1000 development kits have been shipped there is a nearly infinitely tiny chance that there would not have been a leak of any secret that would require extra developer effort or that Nintendo would not want developers to take advantage of.

That means that whatever secrets are left to the revolution, you can be sure 3d display technology is not one of them. Nor will they deal directly with gameplay.

The trick to this "formal puzzle" is to try and figure out what kind of big secrets a easily accessible gaming oriented device would have that would not require developers to code extra in order to take advantage of this feature.

Just to get the ball rolling down the right alley I'll toss a few ideas out there:

Free Wifi System

Built in speech to text + translator (all languages can communicate with each other and the chat can easily be censored making it always family friendly)

DS demo + game download service-like that found in current kiosks

Johnny B said...

Like it or not, we have to assume that Nintendo's quotes are pointing us in the right direction. Afterall, the quotes are our only source of information about the Rev's final secret.

If you accept the quotes, it becomes very difficult to deny that the final secret pertains to an innovation in display.

While I think 3D projection is a decent prediction, I don't think we've actually cracked the puzzle yet. I still think stereo 3D via glasses is the best guess. If the peripheral had a sunglass-like design, it probably wouldn't put off non-gamers. But then there is the bit about portability, which stereo 3D does not account for. In my mind, AR is a likely candidate because of this. Like the controller, I think we're close, but we have yet to actually ID the final secret.

Anonymous said...

Bah, Occum's Razor is the single most overused debating tactic.

It posits that the simplest explanation WHICH answers all givens is the best.

You're ignoring some important facts.

-Nazuraki

Anonymous said...

Here is what Matt from IGN has posted lately:

"It's finally starting again.

For more than a year I've chatted with developers, gone to see pubishers, and it's always the same. I hear them talk about their Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 products, but they either don't know or don't care about Nntendo's new generation console, codenamed Revolution. I'd call it frustrating, but that'd be an understatement.

But times, they are a changing.

I've visted a handful of publishers in the last couple of weeks. I'm always armed with the question. It feels like I've asked it a million times. "Do you have anything in the works for Revolution?"

Usually, this query is met with blank stares or occasionally laughter. But more recently, the answers have been dramatically different. A rep for a major studio will come up to me and say, "We need to talk. We've got something for you." Another answers: "We are extremely excited about Revolution and we will have product for it at E3 2006."

Devs are getting kits. And I know of a half dozen major games -- not the ones announced by Nintendo, but real, tangible, working, playable things -- that are underway and ramping up. Everyone seems extremely enthusiastic about their projects, and based on what I know of a couple of them, it's easy to understand why.

It's contagious. I'm hyped. And I can't wait for this May."

It can be found here:
http://boards.ign.com/Message.aspx?topic=110
829452&brd=9029&replies=0


Half of a dozen? While half aint bad but damn I wish it was a dozen or so.

Anonymous said...

What is matt discovering he likes Nintendo again or something?

IGN has been getting a heck of a lot of $$$ for plastering Microsoft advertisements all over the site.

Eljam said...

I do think you are on to something here but Nintendo's doing a good job of keeping us in the dark.

I've been comparing news items and have found some 'general' things of interest. He's my thoughts:

Remember this quote on the Broken Saints website a while ago?
http://news.spong.com/article/8606?cb=607

"- at a major film conference called ShoWest just last month, a panel featuring George Lucas, Robert Zemekis, James Cameron, Robert Rodriguez, and a satellite feed from Peter Jackson has studio reps, journalists, and theatre owners seriously jazzed about their plans to integrate cheap digital stereoscopic 3D (like recent IMAX features or the old school Captain EO experience at Epcot) into ALL major chains by 2007. Lucas even showed several minutes of the original STAR WARS with remapped visuals that popped off the screen and hovered in front of audience members. When an agent friend of mine was chatting with Rodriguez (there to pump Sin City and discuss his experiences with Spy Kids 3D), he mentioned how they were aware of a game machine beating them to the mainstream 3D market."

As ealier post noted, this company is at http://www.in-three.com/home.htm
Take a look at their home page...
Notice what all of them are wearing on the home page? The 3D glasses like you would find in the 3 & 4D movies in amusement parks, i.e., Spiderman @ Universal Studios Florida. Note, some of them are corded, or wired.

This also should call to mind the nicknames of the Revolutions GPU & CPU, "Hollywood" & "Broadway." Think about where Nintendo is having their Pre-E3 press confernece - Kodiak Theatre in Hollywood. Too much of a concidence and the speculation at Broken Saints has been pretty much spot-on.

Finally, they said that there have been hints, quotes, that there could be more than one peripheral. Taking that into consideration, my guess is that there will be a number of ways to 'visualize' a revolution game. First for the virtual console and most users, a connection to a regular tv. If the games are designed to be played on a regular TV with 'plain' 3D glasses, then this could be how & why the system will be under $300 and gain wide acceptance. Also, don't forget one of the patents was for altering the 'appearance' of characters aready designed into a pre-existing game.

Second, taking the patents into consideration, the 'main' peripheral could be a form of stereoscopic 3D projection. It might be an add-on and consist of it's on external screen to project on. From my research(which basically was old 'news' items), most 3D projection screens need a white or silver screen. What if someone doesn't have a white wall in their home adequate to use? Well, the built in screen/glass plate would be a welcome feature.
This way the system could be $100-150 (more than the goign price of a GC, but well within reason) and still be attainable by the 'new' market Nintendo is trying to reach.

Third, and what I consider least likely, is a 3D visor. While possible and affordable, it seems much to much 'manstream,' it could be easily copied, and would turn off the non-hardcore audience that Nintendo is attempting to reach. It might be too complicated, too hardcore, and might never get mainstream accpetance. Also, notice that most Nintendo products are very durable. I don't have ny 3D glasses, but the one's I've seen don't appear to be suitable for a young child's use. In fact, so parents probably would let their kids use them.

I still think that Nintendo is going to find a way to do 3D differently, but in a way that appeals to everybody. The 3D rides and movies at amusement parks are done pretty well and it's easy for everyone to get involved. I think that the simple, replaceable glasses are what Nintendo's going to use. However, there are afforabel3D projectors available. WHatever it is, 3D better be a prominet feature of ALL revolution games, or Nintendo could find themselves in 3d place again.

nemo83 said...

I always use the following quote as proof 3D may be the big secret (if there is one).

"Level 5's Akihiro Hino, producer of Rogue Galaxy and Dragon Quest VIII, believes that the Revolution will give birth to new types of games. He is personally interested in making an RPG where you hold a shield in one hand, a sword in the other and mount a head set on our head"

synus said...

Coincidence ? I don't think

Miyamoto: "It's convenient to make games that are played on TVs. But I always wanted to have a custom-sized screen that wasn't the typical four-cornered cathode-ray-tube TV. I've always thought that games would eventually break free of the confines of a TV screen to fill an entire room. But I would rather not say anything more about that."
Business Week

And this:

As a visual transporter device, 3D HoloProjectionTM provides the capability to visually remove a physical room and replace it with a created and/or real multi-dimensional visual environment. This means that the screen(s) utilized by the imagery becomes non-perceptible to the viewer(s) and the dimensions of the viewing area, while physically scalable upon initial setup, lose total reference to the viewer(s).

Thought-Epiphany said...

Definitely a good summary, Fal. Props to you on this one.

I've been saying for a while that it makes sense. I figured it would either be a visor to achieve the stereoscopic 3d and portability or a form of projection.

More and more it is beginning to look like it will be some form of projection.

Anonymous said...

huh, well i guess the possibility of AR means the revolution will NOT be televised :P

Anonymous said...

You want stereoscopic 3D?
Here check this:
http://www.opticalitycorporation.com/technology/technology_core.html

and this:
http://www.x3dworld.de/

I'm not sure if it's the same or something completely different from the nintendo patent (United States Patent Application 20050237323) but it's technically possible!!!
It works like this (as far i understand the "opticality"-tech-stuff): Not you but your tv-screen will have to "wear the glasses". The picture is splitted in some asynchron timed pics. Have read the description some months ago so I'm not sure, but i think it's a at least a set of 8 or more split-pics. So you are able to see a "real" 3D pic from diffrent angles. The deph depends on the size of your screen. But there should be enough deph on your "normal" sized tv-screen to say: wow!
The company mentioned above generates the effect by hardware built into the tv. But Nintendo should be able to do the same within the Revo (I think).
"Yeah but it's too expensive" you maybe will say. Hm, what's about selling the console under price like XBox 1+360, PS2+3? Think about it! -TomBong

PS: Hey Falafel! Ist Dir es nicht möglich mal als Vertreter der Medien einen Blick auf so'n Gerät zu werfen? Ist bestimmt geil! Hab' irgendwo gelesen, dass die so'n Ding letztes Jahr auf 'ner Messe (EXPO ?) in Japan in Anwesenheit von BP Köhler vorgestellt haben. War glaub 'n 50" Plasma-Panel mit 'ner "Bild-Tiefe" von mehereren Meter!!!
Ein 3D Projektor hätte zwar auch was für sich, aber Stereo-3D auf (vor) der Glotze wär doch eigentlich praktischer. Auserdem würde beim "interagieren" mit dem "Bild" die Projektion nicht unterbrochen. Zumindest nicht so sehr wie ein relativ gebündelter "Lichtstrahl" aus nem Beamer, der dann 'nen Schatten wirft.
Gruß TomBong!

Anonymous said...

^^^ Sorry wegen den ganzen Typos...
-TomBong

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