Sunday, November 06, 2005

Patent reveals 3D projection plans?

First of all, let me apologize for not posting anything about this patent earlier. The simple reason is that patents are notoriously hard to understand and this one may actually relate to stereoscopic 3D projection. It just needed a lot of time to dissect it properly and I was very busy in the last few days. To rush this post would not have done justice to this truly intriguing patent. I very much hope you feel that the delay in posting this story is made up for by its thoroughness.

To the topic at hand. The patent is entitled:
´Three-dimensional image generating apparatus, storage medium storing a three-dimensional image generating program, and three-dimensional image generating method´
The abstract reads:
´A video game apparatus as a three-dimensional image generating apparatus includes a CPU. The CPU works together with a GPU to generate and display a game image.´
Up to this point, the patent could relate to any videogame console I suppose. If you want to get acquainted with the type of language used in patents, I recommend you compare this one with a PlayStation2 patent I found.

It goes on:
´More specifically, some objects are arranged in a virtual three-dimensional space. The virtual three-dimensional space is converted into a viewpoint coordinate and then projected and converted.´
Now, this is unusual. If you check with the PlayStation2 patent, you will find no mention of the word ´projection´. Even an Eye Toy patent only ever mentions ´gaze projection´, meaning the direction in which the gamer looks.
´After the projection conversion, determination points are set corresponding to a specific object, and the degree of hiding of the specific object is calculated on basis of a Z value of the specific object and Z values of the determination points. According to the degree of hiding, the movement of a viewpoint is controlled or the brightness of the light source is changed.´
This is quite a mouthful. Let me try to translate this into plain English. First of all, the ´object´ mentioned is an in-game character (see FIG. 4 below). The term ´hiding´ really means a blocked view. The ´determination points´ must be some kind of anchor points around the character, a number of fixed points if you will. The ´Z value´ must be a depth coordinate, basically how far an in-game character stands away from the player. So this paragraph really talks about measuring the apprpriate distance between an in-game character projected into a room and the player; also to what extent the view of the character is blocked by objects in between him and the player. Let us turn to the images to see this more clearly:


FIG. 4
´FIG. 4 is an illustrative view showing one example of a virtual three-dimensional space developed on a video game apparatus presented in FIG. 1´
Note: FIG. 1 shows a Gamecube hooked up to a TV.
















Clearly, the player is on the right, behind some kind of screen that could be a stereoscopic sheet of glass (refer to my older post 3D after all? for more information on this technology and type of projection). The fixed points around the character suggest that his projected image should appear to be partly obstructed by an object. This information needs to be recognized when the character is projected, calculated and projected again. That must be the reason why the abstract mentions conversion, projection and more conversion:
´The virtual three-dimensional space is converted into a viewpoint coordinate and then projected and converted.´


FIG. 5
´FIG. 5 is illustrative views showing one example of a method for setting determination points in case where no hiding material exists between a viewpoint and a hidden object;´




































This illustrates a case where the in-game character is projected in full, because no objects are blocking the view.


FIG. 6
´FIG. 6 is illustrative views describing one example of a degree of hiding in case where a hiding material exists between the viewpoint and the hidden object;´

































This illustrates a case where the lower left half of the character is blocked by an object.


FIG. 7
´FIG. 7 is illustrative views describing another example of the degree of hiding in case where a hiding material exists between the viewpoint and the hidden object;´





























This illustrates a case where the entire left half of the character is blocked by an object.


FIG. 8
´FIG. 8 is illustrative views describing other examples of the degree of hiding in case where no hiding material exists between the viewpoint and the hidden object and in case where a hiding material exists between the same;´







































This illustrates a case where there is a light source behind the character. Imagine Mario standing in front of the sun. When the character is partly blocking the light source, the intensity of the light should be dimmed accordingly.



It seems very convincing so far that this patent deals with stereoscopic projection. However, there is a case against. In the description, it reads:
[0004] In the so-called computer graphics (CG) technology field well known to the general public, a virtual three-dimensional space is established, objects are rendered and a virtual screen is provided in this space, and a rendered (displayed) image is projected and converted, and displayed on the screen. According to the CG technology, it is necessary to control a viewpoint in order to determine an image seen from what position in the virtual space should be displayed. The control of a viewpoint is important especially in such a game where a three-dimensional image is rendered in real time according to input from a controller. More specifically, an object to be noted may be hidden by another object depending on the setting of a viewpoint, which makes it impossible to obtain an intended image. In such a case, it is a general practice to move the viewpoint to a position where the object to be noted is not hidden by another object.
Why is the screen sometimes referred to as a ´projection screen´ and sometimes as a ´virtual screen´?
[0005] For example, one example of such a conventional kind of three-dimensional image generating apparatus is disclosed in Japanese Patent Laying-open No. H9-167260 laid-open on Jun. 24, 1997 (document 1). According to document 1, if any hiding material such as another object comes in between an object to be operated and a camera in the game space, the camera is rotated and moved to a position where the hiding material does not hide the object to be operated. In this manner, the object to be operated is constantly displayed within the screen.
This sounds almost as if the patent may just relate to a method of generating an in-game camera according to the player´s controller input and based on objects that would block the view. At least, this is what some people have suspected it might only boil down to.

However, consider that showing a character on screen according to the objects that are in front of or behind him is neither new, nor is it a tricky operation when programming a game. There is simply no need to improve this technique, in my mind. Furthermore, the evidence in favour of this patent dealing with a technology that projects a 3D image into a room (much like ´Augmented Reality´) outweighs those few points that seem odd.

In my mind, the only real question is whether this patent relates to something that will be used with the Revolution console. And as far as that debate is concerned, we have had plenty mysterious comments that seem to suggest this. Again, I want to state that I am trying to remain sceptical about any kind of 3D projection. Especially the recent mock-ups by Seriousgamer007 (or other fakers) have made me more sceptical of this. And yet this patent seems to describe just that: 3D images projected right into your room.

On a final note, the apparent Japanese patent cited by Dead Rabbit in the comments to my anniversary post is unrelated to this. Once a patent is actually pending it must be given a different number. I did the same with one of the Sony patents mentioned above and I ended up with a Minolta patent to do with printers. I have also checked the German company that is mentioned in the apparently related patent (Heidenhain GmbH) and they are a company manufacturing precision measuring machinery and the like. The patent title may suggest that it could be related to the controller functionality (METHOD AND DEVICE FOR TRANSFERRING DATA BETWEEN ONE PROCESSING UNIT AND SEVERAL POSITION MEASURING DEVICES) but it is found only by searching for the publication number, rather than the application number (as mentioned in the US patent). And following the same routine with other patents leads to complete misses.

EDIT Since some readers doubt the significance of the patent, allow me to dissect the main claim given:
´A three-dimensional image generating apparatus for generating a three-dimensional image according to an operator's operation input, comprising:
1) ´an operation input detecting means for detecting the operator's operation input.´

This would have to be a receptacle of sorts, for example an infrared receptacle.
2) ´an object data storing means for storing object data for rendering objects forming a three-dimensional image.´

This would have to be the console´s memory.
3) ´a displaying means for displaying an image projected onto a projection screen within a virtual three-dimensional space.´

This would have to be a screen of sorts.
4) ´a virtual three-dimensional space generating means for generating said virtual three-dimensional space based on the operation input detected by said operation input detecting means and the object data stored in said object data storing means.´

This may be either the CPU or GPU or both, rendering 3D images.
5) ´a viewpoint controlling means for controlling a viewpoint within the virtual three-dimensional space generated by said virtual three-dimensional space generating means.´

This would have to be the controller.
6) ´a display image generating means for generating said image of said virtual three-dimensional space seen from the viewpoint controlled by said viewpoint controlling means, which is projected onto said projection screen.´

This I cannot identify. If this is different from 4) what is meant by it? And if it is, again, the chips generating a 3D image, why list this separately?
7) ´a depth value storing means for storing a depth value of each pixel of the image generated by said display image generating means.´

Again, this would have to be the console´s memory.
8) ´an object arrangement position storing means for storing at least an arrangement position of a specific object in said virtual three-dimensional space.´

Again, memory.
9) ´a determination point setting means for setting a predetermined number of determination points in a predetermined area containing the arrangement position of said specific object in said image.´

This may relate to a part of the program that calculates the reference points talked about above.
10) ´a determining means for determining whether or not a first depth value of the predetermined number of determination points set by said determination point setting means is smaller than a second depth value of said specific object.´

This may relate to a part of the program that calculates the depth and distance between two objects.
11) ´a degree-of-hiding calculating means for calculating a degree of hiding of said specific object according to the number of said determination points where it is determined by said determining means that said first depth value is smaller than said second depth value.´

This may relate to a part of the program that calculates whether an object is hidden by another object.

In conclusion, I don´t understand why there is a difference between 4) ´virtual three-dimensional space generating means´ and 6) ´display image generating means for generating said image of said virtual three-dimensional space´, unless the display mentioned in the latter is indeed a tangible display, i.e. hardware.

Source: United States Patent and Trademark Office, Patent Abstracts of Japan

Thanks to: Dead Rabbit

102 comments:

Urian said...

This is more older than Gamecube, this comes from the PowerVR Series used in Dreamcast, Naomi, Naomi2 and PC.

The idea is that when any non-transparent object of a 3D scene of another and you cannot see the object that is more away than you the system won´t render it.

The only that you need for make it is a Tiled Z-Buffering, nothing more than this.

Urian said...

In other words, this marks that NEC isn´t limited to the manufacturation process of the hollywood and will be part of the design team.

Anonymous said...

CHECK THESE VIDEOS OUT:http://www.t-immersion.com/video_gallery/main.asp?idf=a0#

Anonymous said...

I saw a vidio of these 3D projection things and i thought it was amazing. If nintendo is thinking of using it THAT WILL ROCK AND NINTENDO WILL RULE THE WORLD!!!!!!

Niwre said...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but doesn't this describe plain 3D as we know it?

Falafelkid said...

@ Niwre & Urian: Hi and welcome. I don´t think this is simply to do with conventional 3D graphics. It´s a fair point to suggest that a part of a character or object that is not visible (by being blocked by an object in front) should not be rendered at all. That may be a new technology and that may be more efficient to some extent. However, if that was the case, explain the last picture. What would that have to do with a light source behind a character that would dim the light accordingly? That already happens in video games and has little bearing on your point about leaving unnecessary calculations out.

Also, the patent makes direct reference to projection onto a projection screen. So there is a physical screen included in the device concerned. It reads that the ´apparatus´ (i.e. console) is ´comprised of´ (i.e. consists of):

" (...) a displaying means for displaying an image projected onto a projection screen within a virtual three-dimensional space; a virtual three-dimensional space generating means for generating said virtual three-dimensional space (...)"

I don´t think we should be deterred by the frequent use of the word ´virtual´. It is somewhat weird. But think about the use of the word: Existing 3D goggles (such as the ones in arcade halls or used with PCs) are always talked about as ´virtual reality´ gear, though the hardware is quite tangible and real.

sssd said...

Nothing about this patent implies what is being projected is outside of a normal tv screen.

It appears to just be a technique for properly handling different aspects of programming a game in a virtual 3D environment, and not projecting it ont a special glass or otherwise creating a truly 3D gameplay experience.

I agree with Niwre, I don't think it's anything more than a description of, or a new technique for, the 3D we currently see in video games.

sssd said...

@falafelkid:

I still disagree - the word projection can be applied to a normal tv screen just as easily as something "outside" the tv.

As for the light source behind the character - just as you say, it's already done in video games. It's being included in the patent because patents are notoriously specific and technical, so it probably requires such redundancy.

Falafelkid said...

Hi sssd. If this was simply to do with a programming technique, there would be no mention of any hardware. Why patent a programming technique entitled apparatus and method? Why mention the means for generating images? That doesn´t make a lot of sense to me.

About the light source aspect, I don´t think something as basic as that can be patented and would be included, unless it really was something new.

Dameleeman said...

Didnt Nintendo send IGN a picture that showed the revolutions changing viewpoint. This was before any info on the Rev was even speculated. The picture seems very related to this patent. Thats the only reason I really believe this is from nintendo. As for what it means, who knows.

Anonymous said...

Though I agree that the patent is worded suspiciously, even for a patent, I am fairly convinced that this concerns only the regular stuff, that is, virtual 3D generating techniques (non-stereoscopic).

My guess: Nintendo is re-patenting their 3D generating techniques for the Revolution here. Or, going out on a limb, maybe Revolution will actually utilize dedicated hardware for camera control.

I still believe Nintendo might use a secondary display of some sort, perhaps even stereoscopic, but this patent isn't it.

Falafelkid said...

Updated the post, dissected the main claim. Please read.

DEAD RABBIT said...

Personally, the patent is either badly written or the whole patent is not understandable for the normal person, including me. It clearly states:

"Therefore, it is a primary object of the present invention to provide a novel three-dimensional image generating apparatus, storage medium storing a three-dimensional image generating program, and three-dimensional image generating method."

I simply looked at some obvious clues and references. Normally, there is a whole list of references to other patents. In this case, just one patent referred to a Japanese outside patent and the contents of that patent are in no way related to just 3D processing methods.

Fedboy said...

The way I get it is more the other way around, that it's like a camera-like device that can capture 3D-enviroments (see 6). Come to think about it it could be both, working togheter wouldn't that be awesome you could play ingame with your body and the game would know where you are but you, would also get for example a weapon displayed in your hands (very bad example I know, and not gonna happen)

Falafelkid said...

Slightly off-topic (or at least off-post anyway) is an interview with the Nintendogs and Mario Kart DS producer Hideki Konno. In one answer he´s talking about what he´s got cooking for Revolution:

"We're thinking of so many different things. We're still at the stage where we're trying so many different things. We're doing things with big, expansive movements and smaller, more concise movements. It's hard to narrow it down to one over the other.

Did you see the Tokyo Game Show video? We actually have things using the movements you saw. Like the cooking game. We have this game with a big wok that you use to cook Chinese food, and it's really interesting to have the meat and vegetables frying in there, and use the controller to flip the food around without it spilling out of the pan."

Anonymous said...

@Fedboy: Really interesting idea.

This patent is intriguing, and definitely deserves attention. Even after looking more into this patent, and looking at similar patents, I'm still confused. However, I honestly believe this patent describes normal 3D processing. Sorry, this might get long.

Let me refer you to paragraph [0008], under the 'Description of the Prior Art.' From this paragraph, it seems the intention of the patent is to resolve the problem of a constantly moving camera in a crowded room/environment. That is, by calculating an angle at which the player/character is partially visible, the camera need not rotate the player/character into full view. Looking at the patent in this light, it makes much more sense.

There are things that don't make sense, like why its called a 'projection screen,' why the screen is not refered to as a separate device, as it is in most other Nintendo patents, etc.

However, if this really were for stereoscopic 3D, then why aren't the mechanics of stereoscopics discussed. That is, why isn't the generation of two slightly different angled viewpoints (for each eye) discussed?

Again, there is evidence both for and against true 3D in this patent, but the way I see it, its only describing the normal stuff.

Falafelkid said...

Hi Anoynmous. Very good points there. I totally agree with you. There are arguments for and against - and I totally share your view on them. I simply choose to draw different conclusions.

For instance, the reason why stereoscopic technology is not discussed may be because it is either discussed in a different patent - or because the technology itself is undoubtedly the subject of an existing patent by some other company.

This would only be a patent for the projection of a 3D image into a room, taking account of the real objects in it and projecting the image likewise. In my mind, at least, it could be.

Falafelkid said...

Oh, and Fedboy: Good point. This is exactly what I imagine as well. In fact, the device would have to ´scan´ the room by means of the reference points before it could accurately project any 3D images. So it would have to be some kind of camera or tracking device at least.

Anonymous said...

Honestly, if the Nintendo Revolution did have some kind of 3-D projection, woud you like it? I do not think I would. It would be damn cool, but if anything, it seems to me that it would make games TOO big. Videogames would seem more a full time activity to me than a short leisurely thing. I think 3-D projection is going against the kind simple, quick, for everybody approach to gaming that Nintendo stands for. However, I do think that if it did incorporate 3-D projection, the console would sell like hotcakes. Which is good, because hotcakes are delicious.

Falafelkid said...

In fact, I just saw the most convincing argument in favour of this patent dealing with projection. If it didn´t, why would the first image (FIG. 4) show a small version of the game scene on the screen and a large one behind it, inside the room? A normal screen is flat and as such a 2D device. Why else would the figure show depth, if not in order to show projection?

Anonymous said...

Looking into this patent even more, I believe the 'projection screen' is a virtual plane within the 3D space of the game that represents the user's real world screen. As a 3D programming technique, this virtual projection screen is used as a reference by which viewpoints and other data can be calculated, and from there transferred to the video output to be displayed on a TV screen. Take a look at this article:

http://www.devmaster.net/articles/software-rendering/part2.php

Of course, even if this is what is meant by a virtual projection screen, there are still many unanswered questions raised by this patent. I too hope for AR, stereoscopic 3D, or perhaps even virtual reality. However, I'm afraid this is just another dud, ala cube-mapping.

-anon 1:49 PM

HereticPB said...

sigh

Falafelkid said...

Hi Heretic. That comment is unlike you. Why sigh? What do you think?

Fedboy said...

"[0041] The controller 22 is provided with an operating part (operating switch) 26 on top surface, bottom surface, or side surface thereof. The operating part 26 includes two analog joysticks, one cross key, a plurality of button switches, etc. One analog joystick is used to input a moving direction and/or moving speed or moving amount of a player object (a moving image object capable of being operated by a player with the controller 22) by a tilted amount and direction of the stick. The other analog joystick controls the movement of a virtual camera according to its tilted direction. The cross switch is used to specify the movement of the player object as a substitute for the analog joystick. The button switch is utilized to specify a motion of the player object, switch the viewpoint of a virtual camera as a three-dimensional image, adjust the moving speed of the player object, etc. The button switch further controls selection of menu options and movement of a pointer or cursor, for example. "

Sounds gamecuby, also the foreign date is 2004 from Japan so if it was something really big wouldn't the japanese have found out?

Falafelkid said...

Dag Fedboy. Leuk dat je hier bent. ;) You are right, that is the description of FIG. 1, which shows a Gamecube plus controller hooked up to TV. However, the consoles in those patents are only exemplary. In fact, that´s made clear in the text itself:

"a game system of one embodiment"

So, the Gamecube drawing and description need not mean that the patent is Revolution-unrelated.

BIGMIGZero said...

Hey guys if you continue reading that part of the patent about the controller it says basicaly the whole controlers setup could be different than what was mentioned there. We had a thread about this at Moz La Punk but no one likes to talk about it anymore, lol. The one part of the patent with the controler states that the configuration of the controler could also be changed, and the example given is something that sounds much like the revo controller, also it mentions the use of radio or infrared connectivity to the console. Ha i found it, i think this patent was linked to the main patent.

Soruce: (server gets crowded easy, you have to keep trying it.)

http://www19.ipdl.ncipi.go.jp/PA1/cgi-bin/PA1DETAIL


"PATENT ABSTRACTS OF JAPAN

(11)Publication number : 2004-129252

(43)Date of publication of application : 22.04.2004
(51)Int.CI.
H04L 12/28

(21)Application number : 2003-327601 (71)Applicant : DR JOHANNES HEIDENHAIN GMBH
(22)Date of filing : 19.09.2003 (72)Inventor : BRATZDRUM ERWIN
(30)Priority
Priority number : 2002 10245905
Priority date : 01.10.2002
Priority country : DE
(54) METHOD AND DEVICE FOR TRANSFERRING DATA BETWEEN ONE PROCESSING UNIT AND SEVERAL POSITION MEASURING DEVICES
(57)Abstract:
PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To provide a method and an apparatus for transferring data between one processing unit and several position measuring devices which are mutually connected by a line bus topology and with which positional data in each position measuring device are guaranteed to be detected at a limited time point at all the time.
SOLUTION: For simultaneously processing positional data request signals (RQ) in position measuring devices (20, 30, 40; 120, 130, 140), peculiar delay correction values (dD1, dD2, dD3) are taken into account for the position measuring devices (20, 30, 40; 120, 130, 140). Therefore, from the generation of the positional data request signals (RQ) on the side of processing units (10; 110) to simultaneous processing of the positional data request signals (RQ) in all the position measuring devices (20, 30, 40; 120, 130, 140), the same delay time (TL) is generated as a result."

BIGMIGZero said...

oops wrong patent but its stil an interesting one, i think the one i was describing is further down in the reading in the patent you brought up fedboy. the patent i posted was another one connected to that original patent in this thread. It seems like it talks about the "sensor bars" for the revolution

Sory for the double post.

Falafelkid said...

Hi bigmigzero. Don´t worry. This Heidenhain rumour is totally unfounded. I just called them up and they sincerely know nothing about videogames. They manufacture very precise measuring tools for the manufacturing industry. They are concerned with an accuracy of a few nanometers. This has nothing to do with affordable home applications. See for yourself: http://www.heidenhain.de/

Gryffin said...

Lets suppose this is for the revolution, wouldnt that reverse the idea that Nintendo is trying to appeal to a broad audience with a simple game machine?

Red Bull and Vodka said...

Looks like Nintendo are giving birth to the 'Holodeck', the PS3 has the multi-core 'Warp drive', and the 360 live service is the first attempt at a transporter.

Make it so...

Raphael said...

@ gryffin

If anything is true on this roumor (I don`t think so), it would be likely, that it`s only a little type of projection.

But it wouldn`t gonna happen.

Blizz419 said...

this patent is very confusing, i have a theory, i could be way off here but i thought it was worth mentioning, ok remember all that talk about Cube mapping a lil while back, what if this is somehow related that, as i understand it it cube mapping is basically a way to show reflections and such, basically a cube with 6 different points of view and such, i'm sure theres alot more to it but my knowledge is limited about it, but say all this projection talk is about projecting different views to various points in game and such in a superior way to basic cube mapping to help create better visuals, effects and maybe lighting. again i could be way off but thought this was worth a mention

Niwre said...

Falafel - You're German, right? Saw you speak some Dutch right there ;)
[QUOTE]why would the first image (FIG. 4) show a small version of the game scene on the screen and a large one behind it, inside the room? A normal screen is flat and as such a 2D device. Why else would the figure show depth, if not in order to show projection?[/QUOTE]
That's how 3d works right now. You have an 3d rendered image which is projected at your 2d screen. If the arrows pointed the other way it around, it would be far more interesting :)

BIGMIGZero said...

cool. Thanks Falafelkid, however its kind of wierd how they worded this patent. And by the way awsome juob in the artile comparing the patent for the PS2, i was about to sugest that. I think that if such a method was used it would be limited. Mabe using a screen almost directly in fron of a tv or monitor screen (projector screen would be adjustasble.). I think how it would work is that the Tv behind the screen would act as its depth and background (screen would border translucence), and the revolution would use a very small projector to put out the light needed for sterioscopics. Two beams constantly projecting an image onto the screen and also having the TV playing in the back giving a sence of true depth to go along with the sterioscopy. Mabe this patent describes how this would work if placed in front of the TV, because to give a better sence of depth the projector would project a image on the screen like a box, and the Tv would project the person. There fore this patent would discribe the process in which the TV and the screen would interact using this new method of rendering game visuals. This would give it quite a real sence of sterioscopics and combign reality with virtual in a sence to achive this. What do you guys think? I highly doubt this as well but could that work with this said patent. If it does it might be something to look into.

Thunder Emperor said...

hey falfelakid

could you interpret this news, its in dutch. thanks. abotu NST fps for rev


http://www.insidegamer.nl/content.php?id=8429



Dinsdag 8 november 2005 | Nintendo heeft intern de mogelijkheden onderzocht om een first-person shooter (FPS) te ontwikkelen voor de Nintendo Revolution. Zo zegt Nintendo president Saturo Iwata in de laatste editie van het magazine EDGE. Dit bevestigt de eerdere geruchten dat Nintendo aan een schietspel zou werken. Nintendo kijkt ook naar mogelijke sportspellen voor de Nintendo Revolution.

Daarnaast wist de topman van Nintendo nogmaals te benadrukken dat Nintendo externe ontwikkelaars helpt met het ontwikkelen voor de Nintendo Revolution door verschillende concepten en ideeën voor te stellen. Ook deelt men de kennis en technologie, waarschijnlijk door Nintendo ontwikkelde software, met andere ontwikkelaars. Reggie Fils-Aime, de vice president van de marketing en verkoop, had dit al eerder aangegeven. - Lauran Beers

Bron: EDGE

Blizz419 said...

will anyone, commenta few posts above on my theory, i mean even if they can prove its wrong would nice, just some feedback on it would be appreciated

Metaphoreus said...

The patent has nothing to do with "real world" projection or stereoscopic 3D or anything of the sort.

All of what is described is a visual representation of functions performed within the console itself. Here's how this goes:

The console creates a "virtual 3D space" and populates it with (virtual) 3D objects. At this point, of course, no visuals are even involved, and both the 3D space and the 3D objects in it are merely calculations.

Next, the console calculates the in-game camera angle and "projects" the resulting image (still just a calculation) onto a 2D plane (via another calculation, the 2D plane itself being a calculation as well.) This 2D plane represents the TV screen, but is not the TV screen. This whole series of calculations must be performed before the image is sent to the TV screen.

From here, a "virtual" viewpoint (you will notice in the one image, the player character, hiding object, "projection screen" and "viewpoint" are all under the heading "Virtual 3D Space" meaning none exists in the real 3D space that we inhabit.) is calculated to represent--represent, I say--the player in his room, watching his TV screen. Note that the "viewpoint" in said picture is not the player, but a calculation (again).

"Determination points" are added to the 2D plane and check the Z coordinates of objects around the player character. If the player character is thus found to be hidden, then the game adjusts the camera appropriately (or increases the light source behind the character. Please consider the fact that, since adjusting the camera is already used in games, so is increasing the light behind the player character.)

These calculations are all performed real-time, which is why the player can see the camera shifting or the light becoming brighter (or its results). The "viewpoint" checking of the "determination points" and what-not (above) is accomplished inside the console while the player plays the game and sees the results of the calculations.

Upon inspecting this patent closely, there is no reason to believe it has anything to do with projection of images which take up true 3D space.

pn18 said...

GERMAN VERSION OF Thunder Emperor’s POST:
Dienstag, 8. November 2005 | Nintendo hat es intern in Betracht gezogen einen first-person shooter (FPS) für den Nintendo Revolution zu entwickeln. So sagte es Nintendo-president Satura Iwata in der letzten Ausgabe des Magazins „EDGE“. Das bestätigt die Gerüchte, dass Nintendo an einem Shooter arbeitet. Nintendo denkt auch über mögliche Sportspiele für den Nintendo Revolution nach.
Weiters weist Iwata darauf hin, dass Nintendo 3rd-Party Entwickler unterstützen werden, damit diese ihr Konzepte und Ideen verwirklichen können.
Quelle: EDGE

Sorry, i wasn’t able to translate the last two sentences, because i can’t understand dutch. It’s just similar to german .

SAME NEWS IN ENGLISH:
Sorry, too lazy to translate. 

Anonymous said...

NO 3D PROJECTOR

There would have to be 2 projectors (one for each eye).

Regarding the naked eyes: The tecnology to show 3d images without glasses is applied to TVs (3D TV), not projectors. So, there would have to be glasses.

Not everybody would have space available in the TV room a for a projection screen. Remember, Nin wants to expand the market.

Small projection screen? Come on... they want your mom and your family playing together.

The patent is related to the camera position. Do not expect to see any Revo patent before 2006. They are not that stupid...

This hype is part of the marketing strategy. However, I wouldnt expect any "shocking announcement". The "secrets" to be told are related to the wifi strategy / new add-ons / gameplay.

Anyway........ a visor would be preferred to the projector (cost-wise, more immersive, space-wise, etc). A 3D projector could be developed by Sony and M$ for PS3 and X360....in the other hand, only the Revolution has the gyro/bluetooth tecnology that could be applied to a visor - your head would control the camera view.

Well people... Its nice to join the hype but be careful, not going too far...

nz guy said...

well thats nice to know, what do Germans do about war games? please its killing me. I promise if you tell me i'll come up with a relivent and insightful comment.

tim said...

English translation of that dutch article.

Nintendo has investigated the possibilities to create an inhouse first person shooter for the Nintendo Revolution. This has been said by Nintendo president Saturo Iwata in the latest edition of EDGE magazine. This confirms previous rumours that Nintendo is working on a FPS game for its new console. Nintendo is also looking into new possabilities for sportgames for the Nintendo Revolution.

The Nintendo president also pointed to the enormous aid that external developers are getting from Nintendo in developing for the Revolution, by introducing ideas and concepts - and sharing inhouse knowledge and technology with external developers.

Shaze_Nab said...

Nothing to do with this blog entry but still pretty important...

NEW MERICK DETIALS!

Here, in shortened form is some new comments from Jim Merrick.

- 512MB of flash memory is expandable.

- Revolution´s disc drive is the first slot-based disc drive that can handle two different formats

- number of third parties have already committed to providing their back catalogue for download

-It is possible that you could download trailers, in-game music or demos of games that would expire in 30 days, or a game that you could share with another person

- Merrick confirms that Hideo Kojima is working with Revoluton project.

- "With DS, we were 14 weeks, which was the tightest Nintendo has ever been with a console launch and that was an achievement. But with Revolution, we expect to do better than that. That certainly is our goal."

- Europe might not get left behind for once. It´s possible that Revolution would be launched in Europe before Japan or USA (seems very unlikely, imo)

Here is the full article... http://eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=61604

Anonymous said...

Do you people really think the additional 'secret' behind the Revolution will be found on a public domain patent site?

/roll eyes

Blizz419 said...

still, nobody wants to so much as coment on my cube mapping theory related to this, i mean if its really that stupid just tell me, any feedback would be nice seriously, my comment on this theory is almost halfway up this page

Falafelkid said...

Hi Blizz419: Sorry, I am not into development, so I cannot comment. It sounds like an interesting connection, though.

And, well, to Anonymous above: It is a possibility that technology to be used for Revolution has been patented by Nintendo for some time and has been dormant, so to speak. So it makes sense to sift through the patents they hold to see if any of this could provide a clue.

Falafelkid said...

Oh, and to the anonymous poster above the last: I WOULD expect a shocking announcement. The feature that is still under wraps will not be ´just´ their wifi strategy, new add-ons or gameplay.

Wait until I get my answers from Merrick. I very much hope he will hint at what is to come.

Anonymous said...

Ok here is the thing all games are in a 3D world and up until now to change your view point you did so by moving the control sticks on the controller. But now with the revolution controller the game will be able to track where you are and change the veiw point based on where you are. Think of it this way the screen in a game stays the same even when you move around now with the revolution controller in your hand it would change bringing to life a more realistic 3D world.

Blizz419 said...

i agree anonymous that camera angles will be enhanced by the revolution, but more like instead of were you are sounds to much like your moving you location, which i higthly doubt, but i bet we will definatly see some cool games were you point to direction you wanna look

H said...

FALAFELKID give me your email adress I wanna tell you something mine is iscander_tercero@hotmail.com

pn18 said...

jungredakteur@aol.com

HereticPB said...

Is this patent similar to Zelda: Four Swords patent? I really do not want to read all that.

I am tired of patents that go nowhere and where most of us have no clue what it is even saying.

Falafelkid said...

Hey Heretic. That´s why I tried to translate parts of the patent into plain English.

Roberto said...

@ Falafelkid

Ok, lets wait for Merrick... anyway, beside what I've already posted, Nin is very cost driven...

ok, the projector could be sold apart as an option to the TV... however, in that case, a visor would be preferred for the reasons listed above.

Re the shocking announcement,I wouldnt expect a projector (embedded or not). However, yes, a visor would be also shocking.

Nintendo has already taken the 1st step into VR with the 3D "pointer"... Hope it takes the next one with Revolution but I am not so sure it will.

Roberto

Blizz419 said...

ouch PN18 sorry to hear who your ISP is, AOL very bad, bad for your comp, its almost like paying to use a virus, even if it is a virus that gives you access online, i cannot count the number of people who have had many problems with there comp that magically dissapeared once AOL was removed, it embeds itself extremly deep into windows and tries to take way to much control of your comp, sorry this was off topic, i just fealt the need to educate someone

pn18 said...

he buddy, it's falafelkid's email adr.

Anonymous said...

i believe this patent is completely unrelated to revolution for one simple reason: this is not in any way a method of making gaming easier or more accessible. it just doesnt make sense. nintendo wants to make things more accessible, and if you have to buy the remote , the shell controller, the console , the screen , the this and that, people will freak out . it just isnt nintendoish

nz guy said...

Im sure the secret to the rev will be nothing anyone will think of, not because its super advanced but because its out of the ordinary. Take the controller for example, lots of people thought it would be giroscopic but noone expected it to be 1 handed interchangeable and white! so its the little things that count not always other um

stuff.

Raphael said...

@ nz guy

You`re right. Also the direct-point-device is a very important feature. I haven`t used light-guns for games in the past, so I don`t no how exactly they work. But, I think, the revo-controller will be an high advanced product.

Falafelkid said...

Hi. Good points here. The controller technology was a given, but noone suspected the shape of it, which made for the real revolutionary aspect, the handling.

I do expect a similar surprise, of course. But I can guarantee you that there is more to come - and that the controller will seem small by comparison.

Anonymous said...

3D code uses matrices. Projections are performed on the matrix to change how the world is displayed. It sounds like the text in the patent is explaining plain 3D code.

Blizz419 said...

they have AOL in europe??

Anonymous said...

falafelkid: But I can guarantee you that there is more to come - and that the controller will seem small by comparison.

any official sources falafelkid ??

Shoxware Games said...

a nintendo representative from nintendo uk just "confirmed", that the square-enix developed ds game "mario basket 3 on 3" will be released for the gamecube.

M-M said...

http://www.depthq.com/

...listed Nintendo as a client. Don´t know if it´s known.

(maybe Nintendo needs 3D projectors for to show to a large audience the visor effect!)

Blizz419 said...

hmm extremely interesting, m-m this is very odd

Blizz419 said...

i have posted this info on my new blogg, of course giving both you m-m and falafel credit

http://vgameviews.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_vgameviews_archive.html

Blizz419 said...

http://vgameviews.blogspot.com/2005_11
_01_vgameviews_archive.html

Anonymous said...

I agree with the first post. You are completely right. This is among one of my favorite blog spots. The list goes on

www.nintendo-revolution.blogspot.com

www.gonintendo.com

www.nintendite.blogspot.com(which could be the best newcoming Nintendo blogspot) and the list goes on.

PS:if I want to be a member, do I have to have a monthly fee or something like that?

Shoxware Games said...

so what's the fact with "m-m" and www.depthq.com? i mean shigeru miyamoto announced, that they are experimenting, with this kind of technology, maybe for the next-next gen.

nintendo is also listed as a client for this navy-like holographic display and co.

don't you guys realize, that all this technology CANNOT fit in the console's size? why do you think that xbox360 and ps3 are so huge? because of technology. besides... what about the pricing of the console? this will never ever fit into big-n's strategy.

and how loud would that console be?

Falafelkid said...

@ m-m: DepthQ is unrelated. On their parent company´s site http://www.lightspeeddesign.com/clients.html Don James, Nintendo of America, is quoted saying:

". . . I wanted to thank you for the fantastic job that Lightspeed did at E3. The computer graphics and laser overlay highlighted our products and got our message to the show attendees in a wonderful and entertaining way. With your help, it was Nintendo’s best trade show ever."

So all they do is rent out and set up equipment for shows.

@ anonymous: Allow me to quote Iwata-San: "I am afraid this is another one of those mysterious comments." I think you´ll understand.

MadOdorMachine said...

Nice site Falafelkid. Don't know if this has been posted yet.
From CNET:
"IBM demonstrated a low-cost way to get high-resolution 3D images from a large-screen television or home-cinema projector that's already on the market.
IBM expects that the technology could be built into a standard DLP television for less than $20."

Link:
http://news.com.com/IBM+demos+low-
cost+3D+TV+tech/2100-1041_3-5942512.
html

MadOdorMachine said...

It appears as though I screwed the link up. This should work:
http://news.com.com/IBM+demos+low-cost+3D+TV+tech/2100-1041_3-5942512.html

Anonymous said...

Hah, you're such an idiot. Those are not plans for a Stereoscopid 3D Projector. The Patent clearly states that its a method for determining if a character is partly visible in game - if it is then theres no need to change the camera angle. Thats all there is to it.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if stereoscopic outputs were included ;)

Raphael said...

Interview with Reggie Fils-Aime

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/10/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm

Raphael said...

Next try (please copy and paste):

Interview with Reggie Fils-Aime

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/10
/commentary/game_over/column_ga
ming/index.htm

Raphael said...

Another Interview with Reggie:

http://cube.ign.com/artic
les/665/665952p1.html

Falafelkid said...

@ Anonymous: Who are you calling an idiot? At least we are picking this patent apart. Pointing out that the patent is to do with partial visibility of 3D objects is no news to any of us. If you had read my post at all, you would have understood that. Making these sweeping statements as to what it is about without any arguments or having read my post reveals more about you than it does about us. But I don´t want to flame you. While you are here, why not join the discussion, if you really are interested in this topic.

Josh S said...

There are no stereoscopic sheets of glass, 3D projectors, any other voodoo magic devices in this patent. You need a pretty high level of technological sophistication to understand patents.

Shoxware Games said...

there's no need to call anyone an idiot here. let's keep it serious!

falafelkid - i think this one deserved its own news:

http://www.consolewars.de/news/newsdisplay.php?idx=9865

M-M said...

Thanks for the point, Falafelkid. That´s OK to me.

Actually, I am sceptical about a projector. I´ve also suggested Nintendo is interested in this technology for to show...oh, I´m not going to repeat the sentence. I know my english is very bad...

By the way, I´ve been hinted at some existing technology that uses a light, translucent AR visor, and I´m sure this would be the Nintendo choice, if they have the chance.

Anyway, Falafelkid, Reggie said to the CNN:

"I think there were some lessons we learned with the GameCube that we need to apply to the Revolution," [..] With GameCube, at the time, portability was thought to be a big factor – that's why it has a handle. Obviously, that wasn't the case."

The way Reggie speaks, seems it is neither the case for Revolution...

Thunder Emperor said...

this was posted by shoxware games.

http://www.consolewars.de/news/newsdisplay.php?idx=9865


Ubisoft soll bereits mit der Entwicklung von Revolutionsoftware begonnen haben (was zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt ohnehin denkbar ist). Beim ersten Projekt soll es sich um eine Art Doom-Klon handeln. Dieses Projekt befindet sich angeblich zurzeit bei der kanadischen Niederlassung in der Entwicklung. Mit ersten handfesten Infos oder gar Bilder kann man aber erst auf der E3 2006 rechnen. Bis dahin heißt es abwarten


falfelakid could you translate it, i have no idea if thisi dtuch or german.thanks

Thunder Emperor said...

translation

Here is one for you from ubisoft, it is termed as a doom clone. source
http://www.consolewars.de/news/newsdisplay.php?idx=9865
original text in german

Ubisoft soll bereits mit der Entwicklung von Revolutionsoftware begonnen haben (was zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt ohnehin denkbar ist). Beim ersten Projekt soll es sich um eine Art Doom-Klon handeln. Dieses Projekt befindet sich angeblich zurzeit bei der kanadischen Niederlassung in der Entwicklung. Mit ersten handfesten Infos oder gar Bilder kann man aber erst auf der E3 2006 rechnen. Bis dahin heißt es abwarten...


english translation
Ubisoft is to have already begun with the development of revolution often commodity (which at the current time is anyway conceivable). With the first project it is to concern a kind Doom clone. This project is allegedly to time during the Canadian address in the development. On first strong information or one can count pictures however only on the E3 2006. Up to then means it are waiting...


which willmean i am guess that the game is running on unreal 3.0 since ubisoft is well know for using epic engines. take that mark rein lol.

Anonymous said...

In regards to the difference between 4) and 6) of the main claim, I agree that claim 4 relates to the rendering of the 3D space via the CPU and GPU. However, I read claim 6 as pertaining to the virtual projection screen (i.e. camera) itself, which you will notice is different than claim 3, which seems to be a TV (or other tangible display).

That is, in my mind, claim 4 describes the mechanism/hardware that generates 3D space whereas claim 6 describes the mechanism that generates the picture (frame) that is to be displayed on the TV. Claim 5 seems to relate to the control of the camera (the camera man, if you will) which is different than claim 6 (the camera's film).

I realize that these things can be read differently, but just playing devil's advocate here, what exactly is selling you on an AR setup? In short, why don't you think this describes regular 3D?

Falafelkid said...

@ josh_s: You also seem to have missed my point. Noone claims that this patent is about projection. It is obviously about calculations of 3D objects in relation to one another. My point is that this mechanism erally only makes sense when projecting a 3D image into a room, where there might be real objects blocking the view. Also, there are subtle hints in there that could be interpreted as supporting this theory.

@ Shoxware: Thanks for the news. You are right, that would merit its own post, but unfortunately there is no source given, so I´m a bit hesitant. Sounds really cool, though.

@ m-m: I agree with you on that light AR version. As I discussed in the early days of this blog, AR is both affordable and easy to implement and use. It could add some really cool features to games.

@ Anonymous: Thank you for that great contribution. That could very well be just what the patent describes. However, if this really is just a calculation of which parts of an object the player cannot see so they don´t have to be rendered... would that be important enough to implement in games? Would it be worth the patent? I am not a developer myself but I know a few quite well. And I don´t see how that would significantly save processing power. It just seems to me that it could describe a method for projecting 3D images into a room full of real objects.

And what is selling me down the AR path? Well, I know that there is still an unknown feature to the Revolution that will be bigger than the controller. And AR would be my weapon of choice. Also, consider all these weird aspects about the Rev:

Why did they show the controller but no games? Why is the console small enough to be portable? Why will there be no HD support? Check my previous posts for more.

Anonymous said...

Augmented Reality and Sony CSL...

I was searching around curious to what AR is all about, it seems the CSL division of Sony has been doing some "pick-and-drop" testing. It uses a combo of a palm type device and television of sorts... that got me thinking about the DS and Revolution and how they could ultimately work together...?

Here is a quote and a link to the site.

"Pick-and-Drop is an extended concept of the commonly used drag-and-drop. With this technique, a user picks up an object on one computer display with a stylus, then drop it on a (possibly different) computer display. For example..."

http://www.csl.sony.co.jp/person/rekimoto/pickdrop/

Anonymous said...

News here (spanish) http://www.meristation.com/v3/des_noticia.php?id=cw437615e74a4a7&pic=GEN

Thunder Emperor said...

Anonymous said...
News here (spanish) http://www.meristation.com/v3/des_noticia.php?id=cw437615e74a4a7&pic=GEN


thanks man, here it is in spanish and english

NRV, Sábado, 12 de Noviembre de 2005 - 17:27 | | |

Ubisoft anuncia el desarrollo de un FPS para Revolution
Sus estudios canadienses ya están manos a la obra.

Por: Kevin I. Rodríguez

La desarrolladora francesa Ubisoft ha confirmado recientemente sus planes inmediatos con respecto a Revolution, plataforma para la que colaborará activamente, según palabras de la propia compañía tras ser mostrado el innovador pad de la próxima consola doméstica de Nintendo.



Esta información obtendrá una grata acogida entre los fans de los FPS, que ven en Revolution una esperanza para el género en lo que al ámbito jugable respecta, dadas las peculiaridades que el pad del sistema aportará al mundo de los videojuegos. El proyecto en cuestión ya ha sido designado a la división Ubisoft Canadá, de cuyos estudios ya han salido producciones de renombre, como diversos títulos de la serie Splinter Cell o el aclamado Beyond Good & Evil. Los primeros detalles del título, así como las primeras demostraciones audiovisuales podrían llegar durante la próxima edición del E3, celebrada anualmente en mayo en la ciudad norteamericana de Los ángeles


english

NRV, Saturday, 12 of November of 2005 - 17:27 | | | Ubisoft announces the development of a FPS for Revolution Its Canadian studies already are hands to the work. By: Kevin I. Rodriguez The French developer Ubisoft has recently confirmed its immediate plans with respect to Revolution, platform for which will collaborate actively, according to words of the own company after being shown to the innovator pad of the next domestic console of Nintendo. This information will obtain one pleasing welcome between fans of the FPS, that see in Revolution a hope for the sort in which to the juiceable scope it concerns, given the peculiarities that pad of the system will contribute to the world of the videojuegos. The project at issue or has been designated to the division Ubisoft Canada, whose studies or they have left reputation productions, like diverse titles of the series Splinter Cell or the acclaimed Beyond Good & Evil. The first details of the title, as well as the first audio-visual demonstrations could arrive during the next edition of the E3, celebrated annually in May in the North American city of the angels.

Thunder Emperor said...

update on ubisoft fps for rev;

Originally Posted by Namomura:
It was already confirmed by Jeux-France here : http://www.jeux-france.com/articles...-amsterdam.html

- FPS for Nintendo Revolution
- Assassin for Xbox 360

So Ubisoft has actually 2 FPS for Nintendo Revolution in work :

- FPS for Nintendo Revolution (Paris)
- FPS for Nintendo Revolution (Montreal)


Splinter Cell 4: the secrecy will be revealed soon We could discover at the time of the press conference the first teaser of Tom Clancy' S Splinter Cell 4 on Xbox 360 planned for next spring in Europe, certainly one of the plays most awaited on the console of Microsoft. The play will profit from an important innovation compared to the series, certainly on the level of the gameplay, but Ubisoft did not want to reveal this detail for the moment (even with the pressure of Microsoft...). The editor is also even developing an exclusive FPS in Nintendo Revolution in his buildings in Paris, as well as a new title entitled Assassin on Xbox 360. Nothing official for the moment.


nice to exclusive fps from ubisoft. go nintendo


it seems ubisoft is giving nintendo 2 exclusive fps gmaes for the revolution. onr form the paris studio the other from the canda studio.

fal could you contact ubisoft and see what they have to say

nz guy said...

someone should make an ANZAC campaign, WW2 FPS. it would be just as exciting as the Yank or Brit ones, but you wouldn't suffer from 'didn't I do this last WW2 shooter?' sindrome. Otherwise people are going use up all the interesting battles of the second great war.
We did our part we diserve some vid game credit. Besides if not that then what? a lame WW1 game where you spend all your time crouching in the trench so you dont get picked off by a sniper, or a selection Iraq war sinarios where the highlight is pissing on Iraqi POW's and shooting civilians.

deep breaths ...

I gess there's always si fi fps's but there is nothing as interesting as normal people turned troups fighting for king and country.

tim said...

Re: However, if this really is just a calculation of which parts of an object the player cannot see so they don´t have to be rendered... would that be important enough to implement in games?

Well, it IS very important for current gen titles. It used to be like this that it took longer to calculate what areas didn't have to be rendered, then to render the damn thing anyway (within POV) despite the serious overhead (ie: you render/texture graphics that aren't going to be visible). With current tech and hi-poly counts - and the aim to getting as much as possible out of your hardware, and higher clocked CPU's it does get more important/interesting to do so.

So basically - current tech renders everything in your POV, wether or not objects are blocking it or not. A patent like this one describes the actions to render only the objects that are visible within your POV. You can easily have 30% more details in one frame using something like this that doesn't generate too much overhead.

For example: Unreal3.0 engine uses a technique like this, and doesn't render objects that are not visible. That is one of the reasons why it can output such detailed environments and looks such a leap from previous tech games.

Roberto said...

@Falafelkid

"Wait until I get my answers from Merrick. I very much hope he will hint at what is to come. "

Any news from Merrick?

Anonymous said...

Could the patent not be refer to virtual imaging. Method of rendering image at virtual display of sort.

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